Confrontation on 11/17/2005 North Atlanta Comments

Discussion in 'General GWL Questions' started by phillipsmike, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. phillipsmike

    phillipsmike New Member

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    How would you have handled this situation:

    Today I was on my way home from work (I work off Fulton Industrial and live in Dunwoody/Atlanta) and traffic was a bear, so I got off at Roswell Road and took Hammond towards Ashford Dunwoody. I decided that I wanted to stop at Best Buy and look at a Plasma TV (Christmas gift to myself). While I was moving into the turn lane into the plaza, another car was 2 lanes over and cut across all lanes of traffic and nearly hit me, then moved in behind me. I pulled into the parking lot and got out and walked towards the store and was getting ready to enter the Best Buy, when the vehicle in question let out a black male about 6'2 180 #'s and 45-52 years of age in front of the store. He rushes over towards me at this point he says to me:

    "boy, do you drive a jeep" and I reply "yes", and he says "you must be some bad dude", and I said "excuse me", "yeah you must be some bad ass dude", at this point I said "sorry, you crossed 2 lanes of traffic without a signal and almost hit me", and he said "you's must think think you a bad dude" and I replied "**** off"; which I new was a bad idea. But I was not going to take the verbal abuse at that point for trying to mind my own business. At this point he follows me into the store and taunts me saying "**** me, let's go outside and I'll kick your ass. **** Me, yeah you must be a bad dude" I keep walking towards the TV area trying to avoid the situation without saying a word, and then he get's in front of me to try and stop me and I keep walking and walk into him to move him out of my way (I am not a tall man, I am 27 and 5'6" and 225 lbs, I'm not skinny, but not obese, I am a well built man) and he says "oh now you run into me, I'm going to whip you boy" and he stops for a second and says to an associate "this punk said **** you to me, I'm going to kick his ass" at this point he cuts off contact and watches over me. While I am about my business he watches me for 2-3 minutes while I look at TV's. I browse TV's for a few minutes and he heads to the front of the store, and stops there making apparent small talk with the security. I know he is waiting, so I keep browsing the TV's wanting to avoid a confrontation. After awhile I decide that I am done, and decide to leave, I check to see if he is still there, and he wasn't. So I leave. As I walk towards my vehicle he is there waiting. Here is where it gets interesting. I have a carry permit, and carry a Glock 23 when I do carry. I carry infrequenlty (when I go downtown, or out at night in questionable areas, at work when alone etc.) And did not have my weapon on me during this, it was in my vehicle in the side compartment. As I approached my vehicle he came towards me in a threatening manner and said he was going to "kick my ass", and without hesitation I pulled up my shirt and put my hand on the side of my hip like I had my hand on the grip of a weapon and put my other hand up and yelled "do not come any closer". This bluff tactic worked and he stopped, I then proceeded to get into my vehicle and left. He was a taller man, but I was without a doubt stronger than him, I did not feel physically threatened, however; I did not want a confrontation which is what worried me. I now regret not having my weapon on me and I am rethinking full time carry with a smaller piece. How would you out there have handled this, barring my initial comment, which I should not have made, but I did not want to be verbally abused by being called a "boy, dude" etc. How would you have handled this situation with and without a firearm? Even though I wasn't armed because I had a weapon in my possession in my vehicle and acted like I was brandishing, was this a bad call? What would likely happen if I had been carrying and had brandished or drawn due to the terroristic threats and manner in which I was approached. Any comments and advice would be appreciated. Thank you.
     
  2. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    Escallading situation.

    If I were in your place I could see me doing something similar up to acting like I was armed.

    So outside of saying sorry instead of F*** off, what would I have done? Either turned around and go back into the store to talk to the manager or depending on where I parked and where he was, get to my car and weapon before he can cut my path off.
     

  3. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    De-Escalate

    I had a verbal confrontation with somebody, and I used the F word (not at them, not calling them a name, just using it for emphasis), and this prompted the other person to start to take off his jacket and ball up his fists like he wanted to fight me, and he did announce that he was going to kick my ass or something to that effect.

    I wasn't armed, since I just finished taking care of some transaction in a government building, but even if I were armed, I doubt that I would have given any thought to my weapon, other than maybe worrying that if he and I get to tussling, my shirt might lift up enough to expose it to him or to bystanders.

    Anyhow, since it was a harsh word on my part that caused him to go from verbal confrontation mode to physical fighting mode, I figured I'd try to take him back to his prior mode with some calming words. I apologized, told him that I was just edgy that afternoon from dealing with idiot bureaucrats in the government office (everybody can relate to that!), and said that I had no interst in fighting him. He did calm down and after a few more minutes of talking, we shook hands and went out separate ways.

    --Gunsmoker--
     
  4. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    It is very difficult to restrain oneself from simply pounding idiots in situations like this. A combination of testosterone and adrenaline almost compels a violent reaction (at least for men).

    I am not sure carry would have made any difference for you in this particular situation. I would advise you to rethink "car" carry. How often does a criminal attack somebody after he gets into his car? This time of year, there really is no excuse for not being able to hide a Glock 23, and you did indicate an untucked shirt under which you reached, so you could have had it on you. For those situations where the Glock 23 just will not cut it, may I make a recommendation? KelTec P3AT.

    As for your conduct in the encounter, since he was causing a disturbance and cussing and yelling and actually making physical threats in front of an employee witness, perhaps a polite, "Is there a manager or security available? Are you going to let him threaten me while I am shopping in your store?" would have curtailed the encounter. It also would have redirected his anger to some poor security guard (hey, that's what they are paid for) and perhaps you could have gone on about your business unmolested.

    Also, maybe I am just paranoid, but I would have never let somebody like this go outside without me. He already said he knew what your car looks like. My car is much easier to damage when I am not present. I just would not have allowed it.

    I also would not have pretended to reach for a weapon, nor would I have actually reached for a real weapon under the situation you described, but you are a better judge of the level of danger you were experiencing at that moment than am I, since I was not there. Introducing a weapon can certainly change things, and, had this "gentleman" had a weapon of his own, his reaction may have resulted in a very unfavorable outcome for you.

    In the end, nobody was arrested, you were not harmed, and your car remained undamaged. Not too much to critique.

    I am sorry your first post as a new registered member had to be under these circumstances, and I hope you will stick around to comment on some of the other sections. :wink:
     
  5. ICP_Juggalo

    ICP_Juggalo Active Member

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    I think you handled the situation very well. Kudos. You tried to avoid confrontation by ignoring him, then when he persisted you idicated that you had no mutual intrest in combat by telling him to **** off. He then followed you into a public place were he continued to verbally threaten you and was witnessed by an associate of the establishment. Knowing Best Buy there are security cameras everywhere so you would have some evidence to back up your story that you were trying to avoid confrontation.

    The only hitch might be is when you bumped into the aggressor to get him out of your way. That could be construed as simple battery, but then again have a look at O.C.G.A.16-5-25 It looks as if you might be justified in resorting to simple battery and or simple assualt to shut him up per se. I would have been very careful and gave second thought as to pulling your gun. That could be construed as aggravated assault which isn't exempted in 16-5-25. If you pulled your gun in that situation and whether or not you fired a shot and the police were called, you would have to try and convince the police you felt you was in imminent danger of serious bodily injury and/or death. If the guy was a whole sight bigger than you, you could have argued disparity of force maybe? This is just food for thought and in no way legal advice :(
     
  6. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd a bumped him or shoved him after trying to walk around him only once. I believe in turning the other cheek, but that indicates he is getting dangerous.

    "Knowing Best Buy," indeed. What do you think of my opinion on drawing the clerk's attention to that fact that he should do something when someone is threatening a patron or disturbing the store? Do something, don't just stand there with your mouth gaping open! (Did he? :) ) Maybe he just stared like this :shock:

    Right advice?
     
  7. ICP_Juggalo

    ICP_Juggalo Active Member

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    Right advice? You're asking the wrong person Malum. My few months of being a deputy sheriff doesn't even begin to compete with your many years of expertese in law and legal matters. My limited knowledge is based on paying attention to court cases while pulling baliff duty and reading the Georgia criminal code while reading offenses on arrest warrants and filling out OBITS forms while booking in suspects.

    Do I second the advice of getting the store associate's attention to the matter? heck yeah! Get as many witnessess as you can to backup your story. C.Y.A. - I was taught that from day one when I started working at the sheriff's office.
     
  8. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I just thought maybe Best Buy, as any business, would take the initiative in throwing this guy out. Maybe it's too much to expect these days, as people are scared to get involved.
     
  9. phillipsmike

    phillipsmike New Member

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    Follow-up

    Thanks for the replies. I made several mistakes in the situation

    1. I should have kept my mouth shut
    2. I should have had my cell phone on me (I had just been talking to a realtor and had it set inside my cup holder in my car)
    3. I should have talked to security/mgmt at the store (I would have, but I believed he had left the store at that point, and if it persisted I definitely would have)
    4. I shouldn't have gambled with my life with the bluff... but my instincts took over at that point and I didn't want it to turn physical, I did not believe he had a weapon

    I didn't see him when I was approaching my vehicle, he was in such a position as I could not see him until I was about 20 feet away. Anyhow, I have analyzed the situation and thought in retrospect about what occurred. What is the quality of the Keltec P3 that you guys are talking about on here? Thanks for the repliies, I'll be a familiar face on the forums, as always; any insight is appreciated.

    Mike
     
  10. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe New Member

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    I think you handled yourself well, lesser men would have puffed up at him in the store or outside and the situation would have escalated quickly. There is no shame in not fighting. I studied martial arts for many years and my teacher always stressed avoiding conflict. We knew we could seriously hurt or kill someone but what would be the point in proving it?

    I carry all places that are legal and I carry pepper spray on my key chain for situations like this. I don't know what the legal ramifications would be for blasting him with pepper spray but I know it's less then shooting him. Also, I know someone that was carrying and didn't even brandish a weapon but the BG said he did and he had to go prove he didn't. It was very costly.

    Unfortunately we live in a world where you need to be vigilante. I took a class from www.personaldefensetraining.com (i receive no money or recognition for plugging the website) called "the test", I highly recommend it. In the class you get Glock 17 with marking rounds and they run you through situations to see how you would react. One thing the instructor stressed was to try to avoid situations. We did a senario where we had to withdraw money from an ATM. We all saw the shady character waiting near the make-believe ATM but we all went to withdraw money andy and we all got robbed or stabbed. The interesting thing is that we did not have time to pull a gun by the time we realized he was approaching and had a knife (the 21 foot rule appears to be correct). After each of us went through this scenario the instructur asked us why we went to that ATM? There are 100 thousand ATM's in Atlanta why that one? We all saw the creep waiting there but we all went to the ATM anyone.

    My point is that you need to be vigilant and you need to be prepared. We are all in a rush to go about our business and forget to prepare ourselves. I've been guilty of it as well. After taking the class I found myself thinking more about being prepared and not walking around in my own world. Thomas Jefferson said "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance" I think the same can be said for personal safety.

    If anyone is interested in knowing more about "The Test" just post here and I will fill you in on it. It was well worth the $150 bucks.
     
  11. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Is this a one day course? Who cleans up the paint off of the library books?

    After having watched a couple of the videos, I want to know why the "crooks" don't hold their guns sideways like in real life? :)
     
  12. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe New Member

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    It was a 1 day course that ran from 8 in the morning to I think 5 in the afternoon. (I can't remember...old age). The class I took was outside at a gun club and they setup walls...you had to use your imagination. One of the scenarios involved a car accident (we used real cars but simulated the accident). They also videotaped most of the scenarios and we were sent a copy on dvd. All in all it was worth the money.
     
  13. thebugman

    thebugman New Member

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    Malum, where were you a LEO? I know someone who was a cop turned lawyer her in ATL.

    Second is there insurance for intentional tort? THis may have been a case were that would have been handy.
     
  14. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Insurance, typically, no.

    Sort of defeats the purpose of insurance.

    Exclusion will be for bodily injury or property damage expected or intended by the insured. Usually there is an exception for the use of legal force to protect property or life.

    Criminal acts are always excluded from coverage so that unintentional criminal acts may not be covered, either (like, I didn't mean to shoot him).

    Usually specific crimes like assault or battery, are specifically listed to reinforce the point.

    The longer answer is that you must read the policy.
     
  15. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Umbrella policies commonly cover some intentional torts (e.g., defamation, false imprisonment), but, as MP said, reading the policy is a must.
     
  16. artz

    artz New Member

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    Guy...up in the hell-hole called Atlanta...full time carry is a must I believe.
    I have felt that way since being back here. But then again...when I lived in Cali., I didn't live 30 minutes outside a major metropolitian area either...
    Good luck on your choice of mousegun. Mines .38 or .380 with a .22 magnum

    Artz
     
  17. thebugman

    thebugman New Member

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    How did you get into one of their classes? I have been to their site, and seems they almost never have any. They must do something else full time, because I don't see how you could make a living with the infrequent offerings.

    I would love to take the "Test". It seems like a well designed course that could really teach someone how they would respond in a real world situation. Something that will never happen at the range.

    Nevermind, I see that the "TEST" is offered in July in South America. I can hope down their and take it. Wonder who their "private" Client is?
     
  18. Mightyflapjack

    Mightyflapjack New Member

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    You need escalating weapons...

    For this situation you need different weapons. (Note I am not a lawyer, do not take this as legal advice).

    1. Pepper Spray : You have a large person telling you he is about to attack you, you therefore have an immediate threat of bodily harm. Take out the pepper spay and in a loud voice say "Get away from me now!" if he takes even one step closer spray him eyes first. If he does not attack but continues to follow or cuss at you then walk slowly never taking your eyes off him to a security guard / manager and ask them to dial 911 this person is threatening you.

    2. Taser / Stungun : Same instance as above.


    Your best defense for using those weapons is to have a few people around you to verify you tried to get the person to go away and they still came at you in a threatening manner. The best way to get people around you is to CAUSE A SCENE. Yell, make noise... Do not use profanity.

    Other devices that can help in these situations.

    1. Carry a camera with you... cameras are excellent for taking pictures of people, cars, license plates, witnesses.

    2. Digital Voice Recorder... Best to have a recording of what was said. To be able to play in court the person making threats at you is an open/shut case. They are small and easy to have on a loop around your neck (most will think they are MP3 players).

    ..

    Guns:

    "Lethal force is valid only against a reasonably percieved imminent and grievous threat. The jury must agree that your assailant had the capeability, opportunity, and obvious intent to immediately cause you at least grievous bodily harm (GBH) or worse."
    -Boston T Party "Boston Gun Bible", p.3/1

    In this way, actually woman have it easier then men. Your same 6'4", 180+lb. assailant could with just his fists/kicks cause an average woman "GBH" .. So if he had attacked a woman she could have (most likely) defended in court the use of a gun as defense.

    You on the other hand are large enough that saying your attacker could do immediate GBH to you would have been harder to prove.

    Your problems that I saw: (I am not picking on you, Hindsight being 20/20 and all).

    1. You were reacting, not thinking. Finally you started thinking when the guy approached your car, but it could have been too late then.

    Solution: You say you saw him follow you... drive out of the parking lot and take a left.. See if he still follows. If he does dive into Perimeter mall and look for security or police and get their attention without exiting your car. Find help without exposing yourself or seperating from your handgun.

    2. You did not have a non-lethal weapon (pepper spray, taser, etc). Much easier to defend the use of those in this situation.

    Solution: Buy one to have on you. Learn their use. Study their legal applications (right vs. wrong).

    3. You seperated yourself from your gun. Bad idea.

    Solution: Have a carry permit. Carry at all times possible. Have a gun that is comfortable to carry at all times (small KelTec 9mm is very tiny and conceals well and is better then having no gun).

    ...

    All in all, I am glad it went well for you. I do suggest you read "Boston Gun Bible".. Not that I agree with everything he says, but there is good information about protecting yourself.

    be safe.

    -Mightyflapjack

    P.S. By the way.. I know that Best Buy next to perimeter mall... They are some of the most unhelpful employees and managers I know.. I would never shop there if I were you. =)