Concept Gun-Tokarev 1911

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by gunsmoker, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

    The recent thread about how well a 1911 style pistol conceals got me thinking.

    To me, the hardest part of a gun to conceal is the grip. Thin is better than thick.
    Short is better than long.

    If I'm carrying the pistol in a concealment holster on my belt, the length of the barrel and slide doesn't bother me. 5" is fine. A 3.5" or 4.5" barrel on a pistol with a short grip frame may look more proportional, but I don't think the stubby top end really makes the gun a better carry piece.

    Weight is sort-of important, but I recognize that weight helps the recoil feel better and keeps the muzzle flip down. So the "weight savings" that comes from bobbing the barrel and slide on a carry gun is to me, a wash. It is equally countered by the undesirable characteristics of more muzzle rise, and more recoil.

    And let's consider accuracy. Mechanical accuracy is about the same, from 3" barrels to 5" barrels. But PRACTICAL accuracy, shooting fast and while standing on your own two feet holding the gun in your hands, is always better with the longer barrel.
    Longer sight radius.
    And it's easier to point, too. You can get a "flash sight picture" or just look across the top of the slide and point the weapon without any use of the sights at all. Longer barrels are easier to do this with.

    BOTTOM LINE: I think a great carry gun would be thin, have a short grip, but a standard-length slide and barrel. And the weight should be medium. Not too light, but not all steel either.

    TOKAREV: The Soviet Tokarev pistol has the right dimensions. It could be even thinner if the grip panels were made thinner, too. These guns can be very accurate.
    But they are on the heavy side, being all steel. Weight reduction was simply not a factor at all in their design. And they don't have the right kind of safety to be suitable for carry in condition 1.

    CONCEPT GUN: Imagine a metal alloy-framed 1911 style pistol that is shaped like the Tokarev. Stubby grip, full-length slide, long sight radius.

    Or imagine taking the Tokarev design and changing 3 things about it:
    1-- give it a thumb-operated safety in the same position and operating the same way as the familiar 1911 safety. Make it safe to carry in Condition 1 and fast to flick the safety off as you bring the gun to bear on the target.

    2-- Make the frame of the Tokarev out of a metal alloy. Maybe the slide instead, or both of them. Do something to take half a pound off its empty weight.

    3-- Give the Tokarev modern pistol sights. Big but designed not to snag during the draw. Adjustable rear sight. Put some colors on the sights... maybe three white dots, or an orange dot up front but a white outline for the rear? Something easy to acquire fast in less than ideal light.

    P.S. CALIBER: I guess this "concept gun" would not be a .45, because of the thickness required for that fat cartridge. So let's say that it would have to be chambered in 9mm or something close to that in physical size.
  2. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

    For those out there who may be unfamiliar with the profile and dimensions of a T-33 Tokarev, here's a photo.

  3. latter_day_hippie

    latter_day_hippie Well-Known Member

    Why not just build a 1911-style pistol chambered for 7.62 Tokarev? It might be possible to do so as easily as taking a 1911 in 9mm and replacing the chamber and barrel. The base of the 7.62 Tokarev round has the same dimensions as a 9mm and load equally well in magazines designed for 9mm.

    During World War Two, German infantry often would go out of their way to capture Russian PPSH-41 submachine guns (which were made chambered in 7.62 Tokarev), replace the chamber and barrel with one cut down from an MP38 (which was made chambered in 9mm) and adapt the magwell to accept MP38 magazines with an insert made from a cigarette case cut a certain way with tin snips. No modifications to the bolt face, firing pin or striker mechanism were necessary, and the German infantry preferred the PPSH-41 (converted to 9mm as described above) for its greater reliability and higher rate of fire. They could fire 9mm rounds straight from the PPSH-41 stick or drum magazines but preferred the magwell adaptation mentioned above as they had easier access to MP38 magazines.
  4. Rugerer

    Rugerer GeePeeDoHolic

  5. Nothclif

    Nothclif Member

    Just saw this on J&G, not sure of the quality but it's 1911 in .380 made by Llama.



    Edit: Saw you ment a full length slide, so guessing this doesn't qualify but still would be easily concealable.
  6. bushpig1998

    bushpig1998 New Member

    A 1911 or Glock in 7.62x25 have long been a dream of mine. I saw someone selling a Ruger a while back that had interchangeable barrels between 9mm and 7.62 as well. But knowing rugers from the early 90's, it is probably friggin huge!
  7. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

    No, it's not the caliber that makes this "concept gun" attractive.

    It's the idea of a full-length barrel and slide mounted on a rather slim frame with a short grip.

    Out of necessity, the caliber probably could not be .45 because of how fat that cartridge is.

    IMAGINE taking a standard size M1911 barrel and slide and putting it over an Officer's Model frame, and one that's had a bobtail grip reduction too.

    Put extra-slim grip panels on that gun and that's basically what I'm thinking of.

    But if you made it in 9mm or some similar caliber and made the whole thing a couple millimeters slimmer, that would be perfect.
  8. 45_Fan

    45_Fan Well-Known Member

    How about rebarreling a PF9 for 5.7mm or Tokarev and doing a spring swap?

    That'd be heading towards a monster of a pocket gun.