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Señor Member
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What are your thoughts? Should we treat them
as a bar? They serve food, but I'd hazard a guess
that most of their money comes from the cover
charge. Last time I went to one I CCd with, of course,
no problem.
 

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Their business license should be displayed prominently, and has the info you're looking for. If 51% or more of the income is from alcohol, you either need permission or be unarmed.

Az
 

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AzB said:
Their business license should be displayed prominently, and has the info you're looking for. If 51% or more of the income is from alcohol, you either need permission or be unarmed.

Az
And that's permission from the bar owner, not just an employee.

Isn't there a state website where you can lookup restaurants/bars to see how they're licensed?
 

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Isn't there a state website where you can lookup restaurants/bars to see how they're licensed?

I'm posting from my cell phone and don't the link handy, but you can look it up on the? GA Dept of Revenue's web site.
 

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I don't believe the 51% rule applies anymore. If the business is licensed as a bar, you'll need permission, even if everybody has a steak in front of them.
 

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Wolfram said:
https://etax.dor.ga.gov/AlcoholRetailer/Default.aspx
Nothing to add. Just been waiting for an opportunity to post my avatar next to Wolfram's.
:lol: :shattered:
 

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GAGunOwner said:
CountryGun said:
I don't believe the 51% rule applies anymore.
This.
But doesn't the business have to be licensed as a bar if 51% of their revenue comes from alcohol? Or are the requirements for what type of business you are controlled on the county level?
 

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dcannon1 said:
But doesn't the business have to be licensed as a bar if 51% of their revenue comes from alcohol? Or are the requirements for what type of business you are controlled on the county level?
This is a pretty big source of confusion in the current carry laws. The application form for an alcoholic beverage license requires applicants to list the type of business they intend to operate (restaurant, bar, tavern, club, hotel, "other", etc.), but I haven't been able to find any criteria that determine which category is appropriate for a given business. I know of at least one establishment in Atlanta that does not serve any food whatsoever, but is licensed to sell alcohol as a restaurant. There are other businesses licensed as bars or taverns whose sale of food clearly is not merely "incidental" to the consumption of alcohol.

There appears to be no provision in state or local law (at least in Atlanta) connecting the business type listed on an alcohol license to the definition of a bar under O.C.G.A. § 16-11-127. I would be very wary of using alcohol license information as a guide for determining legality of carry.

Interestingly, the definition of a bar per 16-11-127 appears to be lifted verbatim from laws governing smoking in the workplace. O.C.G.A. § 31-12A-2 was passed into law as the Georgia Smokefree Air Act of 2005, and it contains exactly the same language as 16-11-127. The same language shows up in Rhode Island's 2004 anti-smoking law, and in numerous municipal smoking ordinances. As far as I can tell, the original source is the "Model Ordinance Prohibiting Smoking in Outdoor Places of Employment and Public Places" published by a group called Americans for Nonsmokers' Rights:

http://www.no-smoke.org/document.php?id=640

In other words, carrying in bars in the State of Georgia is regulated by incredibly vague language originally published in an example ordinance written by a private anti-smoking advocacy organization. This is somewhat ridiculous, to say the least.
 

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beefwagon said:
dcannon1 said:
But doesn't the business have to be licensed as a bar if 51% of their revenue comes from alcohol? Or are the requirements for what type of business you are controlled on the county level?
This is a pretty big source of confusion in the current carry laws. The application form for an alcoholic beverage license requires applicants to list the type of business they intend to operate (restaurant, bar, tavern, club, hotel, "other", etc.), but I haven't been able to find any criteria that determine which category is appropriate for a given business. I know of at least one establishment in Atlanta that does not serve any food whatsoever, but is licensed to sell alcohol as a restaurant. There are other businesses licensed as bars or taverns whose sale of food clearly is not merely "incidental" to the consumption of alcohol.

There appears to be no provision in state or local law (at least in Atlanta) connecting the business type listed on an alcohol license to the definition of a bar under O.C.G.A. § 16-11-127. I would be very wary of using alcohol license information as a guide for determining legality of carry.

Interestingly, the definition of a bar per 16-11-127 appears to be lifted verbatim from laws governing smoking in the workplace. O.C.G.A. § 31-12A-2 was passed into law as the Georgia Smokefree Air Act of 2005, and it contains exactly the same language as 16-11-127. The same language shows up in Rhode Island's 2004 anti-smoking law, and in numerous municipal smoking ordinances. As far as I can tell, the original source is the "Model Ordinance Prohibiting Smoking in Outdoor Places of Employment and Public Places" published by a group called Americans for Nonsmokers' Rights:

http://www.no-smoke.org/document.php?id=640

In other words, carrying in bars in the State of Georgia is regulated by incredibly vague language originally published in an example ordinance written by a private anti-smoking advocacy organization. This is somewhat ridiculous, to say the least.
Fantastic first post! Welcome aboard!
 

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beefwagon said:
This is a pretty big source of confusion in the current carry laws. The application form for an alcoholic beverage license requires applicants to list the type of business they intend to operate (restaurant, bar, tavern, club, hotel, "other", etc.), but I haven't been able to find any criteria that determine which category is appropriate for a given business. I know of at least one establishment in Atlanta that does not serve any food whatsoever, but is licensed to sell alcohol as a restaurant. There are other businesses licensed as bars or taverns whose sale of food clearly is not merely "incidental" to the consumption of alcohol.
Perhaps the criteria are set by local gov entities. I know when I was in school in Statesboro (in a semi-dry county) a lot of bars tried to register their businesses as restaurants since there were far fewer local restrictions on restaurants. However, the county (or maybe city, not sure) caught onto this and said that to register your business as a restaurant 51% of your sales had to come from food. Then the bars started saying that cover charges were going to all you can eat peanuts or soup :roll: Definite cat and mouse going on in Bulloch county.
 

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CountryGun said:
beefwagon said:
dcannon1 said:
But doesn't the business have to be licensed as a bar if 51% of their revenue comes from alcohol? Or are the requirements for what type of business you are controlled on the county level?
This is a pretty big source of confusion in the current carry laws. The application form for an alcoholic beverage license requires applicants to list the type of business they intend to operate (restaurant, bar, tavern, club, hotel, "other", etc.), but I haven't been able to find any criteria that determine which category is appropriate for a given business. I know of at least one establishment in Atlanta that does not serve any food whatsoever, but is licensed to sell alcohol as a restaurant. There are other businesses licensed as bars or taverns whose sale of food clearly is not merely "incidental" to the consumption of alcohol.

There appears to be no provision in state or local law (at least in Atlanta) connecting the business type listed on an alcohol license to the definition of a bar under O.C.G.A. § 16-11-127. I would be very wary of using alcohol license information as a guide for determining legality of carry.

Interestingly, the definition of a bar per 16-11-127 appears to be lifted verbatim from laws governing smoking in the workplace. O.C.G.A. § 31-12A-2 was passed into law as the Georgia Smokefree Air Act of 2005, and it contains exactly the same language as 16-11-127. The same language shows up in Rhode Island's 2004 anti-smoking law, and in numerous municipal smoking ordinances. As far as I can tell, the original source is the "Model Ordinance Prohibiting Smoking in Outdoor Places of Employment and Public Places" published by a group called Americans for Nonsmokers' Rights:

http://www.no-smoke.org/document.php?id=640

In other words, carrying in bars in the State of Georgia is regulated by incredibly vague language originally published in an example ordinance written by a private anti-smoking advocacy organization. This is somewhat ridiculous, to say the least.
Fantastic first post! Welcome aboard!
Ditto! :righton: :righton: :righton: :righton: :righton:
 

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dcannon1 said:
Perhaps the criteria are set by local gov entities. I know when I was in school in Statesboro (in a semi-dry county) a lot of bars tried to register their businesses as restaurants since there were far fewer local restrictions on restaurants. However, the county (or maybe city, not sure) caught onto this and said that to register your business as a restaurant 51% of your sales had to come from food. Then the bars started saying that cover charges were going to all you can eat peanuts or soup :roll: Definite cat and mouse going on in Bulloch county.
Statesboro's code of ordinances requires that a restaurant:
Have at least 60 percent of its total sales comprised of the sale of food prepared on the premises and nonalcoholic beverages consumed on the premises; and for this purpose, if a restaurant makes a minimum charge, cover charge, or admission charge, or any other nonfood or nonalcoholic beverage charge, the amount so charged shall not be counted in computing total sales and shall not be counted as a food or beverage sale;
This is pretty clear-cut, but there's no language like this in state law.

The city of Atlanta's definition of a restaurant is much looser - to paraphrase, any establishment that serves meals to the public and seats at least 40 people qualifies. Thus, per Atlanta law, any establishment that serves meals - regardless of the business type on its liquor license - is a restaurant.

Here's another very interesting tidbit from Atlanta's code of ordinances (emphasis mine):
Nightclub means an establishment having a capacity of at least 100 persons per the City of Atlanta Fire Code, with all booths and tables unobstructed and open to view, dispensing alcoholic beverages and in which music, dancing or entertainment is conducted. All such establishments shall be equipped with air conditioning. The principal business of a nightclub shall be entertaining, and the serving of alcoholic beverages shall be incidental thereto.
16-11-127 defines a bar as "an establishment that is devoted to the serving of alcoholic beverages for consumption by guests on the premises and in which the serving of food is only incidental to the consumption of those beverages". It also specifically cites nightclubs as a type of business that would qualify as a bar. Atlanta defines a nightclub as a business devoted to "music, dancing, or entertainment", in which the serving of alcoholic beverages is incidental to providing entertainment. This seems to imply that a business meeting the Atlanta definition of a nightclub would not actually qualify as a bar under 16-11-127.

My take on this is that any business devoted to entertainment (music venues, theaters, comedy clubs, etc.) is probably OK for carry in the City of Atlanta, even if alcohol is served.

I am not a lawyer, and I'd strongly advise against using this as a guide to legality of carry. If there's anyone on this board with legal training, I'd love to hear an opinion (a personal opinion, of course, not legal advice) on whether or not any of this makes sense.

grumpy said:
beefwagon, that just may be the most awesome first post, ever. :righton:
Welcome aboard. 5 days fom sign up to post, how long you been lurkin'? I lurked for months before even signing up. I had to make sure I even wanted deal with these lunatics :shattered:
Thanks! I've been lurking for a few months (since I applied for my license.)
 

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beefwagon said:
Statesboro's code of ordinances requires that a restaurant:.....

.....The city of Atlanta's definition of a restaurant is much looser - to paraphrase, any
The State has preemption as far as firearm and carry laws are concerned, so only the code of the State matters as to what a bar is as it relates to carrying.
 

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phantoms said:
beefwagon said:
Statesboro's code of ordinances requires that a restaurant:.....

.....The city of Atlanta's definition of a restaurant is much looser - to paraphrase, any
The State has preemption as far as firearm and carry laws are concerned, so only the code of the State matters as to what a bar is as it relates to carrying.
I understand that. I am simply confused about how the state's definition of a bar interacts with local business licensing and state liquor licensing. The state preemption clause prevents municipalities from regulating firearms, but the conflict here actually appears to defeat some of the statewide restrictions on carry in bars.

My real point is that the state definition of a bar - an establishment "devoted" to serving alcohol to guests - may be undermined by local ordinances specifically defining the purposes to which various businesses are devoted. The state law includes nightclubs on a list of types of businesses presumed to be devoted to serving alcohol, but local ordinances specifically state that nightclubs cannot exist primarily to serve alcohol. A nightclub according to O.C.G.A. 16-11-127 actually would not be considered a nightclub under Atlanta law, and a nightclub under Atlanta law would not meet the 16-11-127 requirements for restricting carry. This is deeply confusing.
 

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beefwagon said:
phantoms said:
beefwagon said:
Statesboro's code of ordinances requires that a restaurant:.....

.....The city of Atlanta's definition of a restaurant is much looser - to paraphrase, any
The State has preemption as far as firearm and carry laws are concerned, so only the code of the State matters as to what a bar is as it relates to carrying.
I understand that. I am simply confused about how the state's definition of a bar interacts with local business licensing and state liquor licensing. The state preemption clause prevents municipalities from regulating firearms, but the conflict here actually appears to defeat some of the statewide restrictions on carry in bars.

My real point is that the state definition of a bar - an establishment "devoted" to serving alcohol to guests - may be undermined by local ordinances specifically defining the purposes to which various businesses are devoted. The state law includes nightclubs on a list of types of businesses presumed to be devoted to serving alcohol, but local ordinances specifically state that nightclubs cannot exist primarily to serve alcohol. A nightclub according to O.C.G.A. 16-11-127 actually would not be considered a nightclub under Atlanta law, and a nightclub under Atlanta law would not meet the 16-11-127 requirements for restricting carry. This is deeply confusing.
You are still trying to put a locality type restriction/meaning on one that is defined by the state as it relates to carry. Only the State's code matters as far as carry, no matter how a locality defines a bar.
(1) "Bar" means an establishment that is devoted to the serving of alcoholic beverages for consumption by guests on the premises and in which the serving of food is only incidental to the consumption of those beverages, including, but not limited to, taverns, nightclubs, cocktail lounges, and cabarets.
The state says that a place has to be devoted to the serving of alcohol on premises and that the serving of food has to be only incidental to that consumption. It gives examples of places where this definition is likely to apply (taverns, nightclubs, etc.) but does not limit it to only occurring in those places. The places used as examples only apply if the serving of food is only incidental to the consumption of alcohol on the premises.
 

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phantoms said:
It gives examples of places where this definition is likely to apply (taverns, nightclubs, etc.) but does not limit it to only occurring in those places. The places used as examples only apply if the serving of food is only incidental to the consumption of alcohol on the premises.
If that's really true, then that's fantastic. There are lots of establishments in Atlanta licensed as taverns and nightclubs that do not actually meet the state definition of a bar.
 
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