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Castle Doctrine Hyptothetical

5K views 51 replies 19 participants last post by  moe mensale 
#1 · (Edited)
A man wearing a skin-tight leotard is obviously unarmed.
He opens your unlocked window and climbs into your unoccupied house.
You arrive home and, still in your yard, you notice the window open. You are still outside, looking in.

You go to the window and look into your bedroom and see him rummaging through your wife's jewelry box.

"HEY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" you challenge.

"I'm stealing jewelry." He replies. "I'm a burglar, can't you tell?"

"STOP. I'M AN ARMED CITIZEN, AND I WILL USE DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT MY HOME!"

The burglar retorts "Consume feces and expire! I've taken this big diamond necklace, and now that my mission is successful, I will leave. I'm too fast for you to catch me, and you can't shoot me!"

You say: "YOU'RE A DUMBASS EXCUSE OF A JEWELRY THIEF, TOO. THAT'S COSTUME JEWELRY. CUBIT ZIRCONIA. WORTH SEVENTY-FIVE BUCKS, TOPS!"

He says: "Well, I like it, and my sweetie will love it. Bye!"

With that, he opens the window on the opposite side of the room, farthest from you, and begins to step through it.

If he gets out that window before you can run around half of the perimeter of your house, ---and he almost certainly can because it's a long way around--- he will easily be able to escape in the thick woods bordering your property on that side.

Can you shoot him?

Legally, I mean.

Would shooting him to stop him at this point be legal under the castle doctrine / defense of habitation law, Code section 16-3-23?
 
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#2 ·
Text of the relevant Code section:

A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon a habitation; however, such person is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:

(1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner and he or she reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person dwelling or being therein and that such force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence;

(2) That force is used against another person who is not a member of the family or household and who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using such force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred; or

(3) The person using such force reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony therein and that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
 
#14 ·
Seems a lot of references to entry... nothing about exiting.
I think you just lost your cubic zirconia.
Thoughts?
How about shooting just to stop an unlawful "forcible entry" (opening a window and climbing in) by a person not a member of the household?

Or... is it too late for that once he's fully in?
(You can't stop an event that has already taken place.)
 
#4 ·
Why was lead not going down range as soon as you see said homosexual jewelry thief? What would have casual conversation?
 
#5 ·
It would be. I would shoot him on sight.

Officer, he had broken into my house and I felt threatened.

Nemo
 
#6 ·
"STOP. I'M AN ARMED CITIZEN, AND I WILL USE DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT MY HOME!"
Case closed:

The homeowner erred when he didn't turn the gun on himself for using such cheesy language.
 
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#13 ·
You're going to speculate about ninjas?
Why not speculate he planted a bomb in your front yard and has the detonator clenched between his sphincter muscles?

You know the burglar is unarmed.
You're not in danger. That's obvious in this fact pattern.
They are trying to avoid you, not attack you.
Are you going to ignore that and pretend it's not relevant? Or area you going to tell the cops that you don't give a s*** about law the law; that you just wanted to kill him for being in your house ?
 
#8 ·
I'd say in that hypothetical, if you shoot him, it mainly depends on the cops that show up, and what they do. And then the prosecutor. If things don't go your way in either case, then you are going to spend an assload of money on a good lawyer, and then there is about a 50/50 chance (but I may be off on those numbers) that you will get to walk. You will still likely lose your job and be out at least many dozens of thousands of dollars.

No visible weapon, no verbal threat to you, he did not break anything to enter, the house was unoccupied when he did, and he is about to leave.

I'd probably take my chances just beating the living sheatt out of him, in this scenario.
 
#10 · (Edited)
No visible weapon, no verbal threat to you, he did not break anything to enter, the house was unoccupied when he did, and he is about to leave.
Cops get my side. I came home and went inside. I heard noises that sounded unusual and checked on them. I did not know who else was home and someone could have been hurt or something.

I checked my bedroom and found him there. He made a suspicious movement and I felt threatened. I fired until he stopped

Nemo
 
#9 ·
The conversation would never take place. No words would be spoken. I see someone in that getup in my house without permission, I'm assuming they are dangerously under the influence of a mind altering substance or otherwise mentally unstable and therefore a threat to my life and they will be dead before they know I'm in the room.
 
#12 ·
That's a ridiculous amount of speculation about their intentions and drug use, and you're ignoring the fact that you were OUTSIDE the house when you saw this unarmed intruder in it.
How's that an imminent danger to you again?
Do you have some other law or part of a law to justify shooting?
 
#11 ·
Wow. Nemo tells the world he will lie to the cops following a deadly force encounter.
Let’s hope it doesn’t happen to you, followed by the authorities reviewing your online history.
 
#16 ·
Gunsmoker,

You really shouldn't leave your goat laying around where anyone can get it. You just got played. Nemo just gave the EXACT statement many LEO give after shooting someone. "suspicious movement", "I felt threatened". The ony thing he missed was "I thought I saw a gun". Unfortunately, not being a King's Man, those magic words probably won't work.
 
#17 ·
If the scenario was in Texas and at night, the shooting would be legal under Texas law, regardless what the thief was stealing or if he was about to leave. He's there, he's dead.

I wouldn't shoot him under those conditions, even in Texas. I get what gunsmoker is saying. Use deadly force only if reasonable to do so under the law. I don't believe he had Texas in mind, however.
 
#18 ·
If the scenario was in Texas and at night, the shooting would be legal under Texas law, regardless what the thief was stealing or if he was about to leave. He's there, he's dead.

I wouldn't shoot him under those conditions, even in Texas. I get what gunsmoker is saying. Use deadly force only if reasonable to do so under the law. I don't believe he had Texas in mind, however.
I agree, on all points. However, I would be very prepared to pull the trigger, at the slightest hint of any threat.
 
#19 ·
Stuff is stuff and insured, family is irreplaceable. Unclear if this is exclusively an issue of stuff or if it possibly involves family.

“That stone is mine!” and “Her soul is mine!” sound freakishly similar at odd hours in the dark.
 
#20 ·
"HEY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" you challenge.

"I'm stealing jewelry." He replies. "I'm a burglar, can't you tell?"

"STOP. I'M AN ARMED CITIZEN, AND
BANG, BANG, BANG. His friend in a clown suit pops out from the kid's bedroom and shot you in the back. The costumes and conversation worked well as a distraction, just as planned. Now they can wait for the wife and kids to come home.
 
#22 ·
Isn’t anybody going to go with Option #3— shooting a burglar who is committing a felony in your house?
Burglary is always a felony, regardless of the dollar value of what the burglar steals.

But... the way the law is worded, does #3 require the intruder do or attempt ANOTHER felony-level crime, not counting the burglary?
 
#24 ·
Isn't anybody going to go with Option #3- shooting a burglar who is committing a felony in your house?
Burglary is always a felony, regardless of the dollar value of what the burglar steals.

But... the way the law is worded, does #3 require the intruder do or attempt ANOTHER felony-level crime, not counting the burglary?
I was confused as to whether it is a felony. From 16-7-1

"(b) A person commits the offense of burglary in the first degree when, without authority and with the intent to commit a felony or theft therein, he or she enters or remains ..."

Did they intend to commit a felony?

Nevermind, I just saw "or theft" while writing that...
 
#25 ·
Exodus 22:2-3

"If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

I wouldn't shoot him - I would find him then sell him into slavery until the item he stole from me has been repaid.
 
#29 ·
When I am home before my 2 boys go to bed, I spend time talking to them and reading them stories (I have a 4 y.o. and a 2 y.o.). My oldest son is unusually bright (like his daddy ...ha) and ever since he was born, has shown a high level of alertness. Last night he asked me if I would be sleeping next to him (I sometimes do this and wait for him to fall asleep before leaving). I began asking him why he wanted me to do this and his response was he was afraid of ghosts. Ever since Halloween, he has mentioned ghosts every day .... so I said "Sure, I'll stay, but can I tell you a secret? Ghosts are not real ..." and went on to explain in great detail how ghosts are just "make believe" before realizing that nothing I was saying was really convincing him. I then asked him if he remembered the Pest Control man that came to the house and sprayed for termites ... he said he remembered ... I then told him he was really spraying a ghost repellent around the house so ghosts couldn't get in. His eyes got wide and he understood what I was saying and asked, "So we don't live in a haunted house?" "Um .. nope, we don't live in a haunted house" I then asked him what other things made him afraid. He mentioned "bugs" and "spiders" then he said "burglars".

I asked him if he knew what a burglar was and he explained to me that it was a person who broke into houses to steal things and hurt people. I wondered how he learned about this and he told me a police officer had come to his school (daycare) and explained what a burglar was. I asked him what he would do if a burglar broke into our house ... I could tell he was thinking and wondering and then he blurted out "I know! I will hide in the closet and stay quiet!" I then said, "but what if the burglar looks in the closet to steal things and finds you?"

His answer absolutely floored me and my wife. "Then I will need a gun and shoot the burglar. Like the police man, he has a gun, I will need a gun".

This is a 4 year old.

I explained to him that he was much too young to have one (he does not know I have guns - My wife and I have an agreement on this) and then we discussed other ways he could protect himself - like getting out of the house and running to the neighbors. But yeah .. his answer was more logical than many adults I know.
 
#36 ·
35 replies, 3 of which are both thoughtful and on topic.


That's disappointing.
 
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#38 ·
"kill 'em all; let God sort 'em out ! "

"The 2A is the only license I need, and it says I can carry any Gawt-Damned place I wanna!"

"It's only illegal if you don't get caught. If you know the right lies, you can get away with anything!"


Yeah, the quality of the Q&A about gun issues on online chat forums is pretty low.
 
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#39 ·
"The 2A is the only license I need, and it says I can carry any Gawt-Damned place I wanna!"
Whether you like it or not, this is a legitimate point of debate. Legitimate enough for the supreme court to hear it.
 
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#43 · (Edited)
A man wearing a skin-tight leotard is obviously unarmed.
A grave mistake on your part. You didn't see him enter. Maybe he's carrying some type of dump pouch which he put down. Maybe he found your night stand gun or your shotgun under the bed. Maybe he's not alone.

You go to the window and look into your bedroom and see him rummaging through your wife's jewelry box.

"HEY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" you challenge.
Another mistake on your part. What statute requires me to verbally challenge unknown people in my house who I know have no reason to be there? What if there's an unseen accomplice whom I've now given away my presence to?
 
#44 ·
Can you shoot him?

Legally, I mean.

Would shooting him to stop him at this point be legal under the castle doctrine / defense of habitation law, Code section 16-3-23?
A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon a habitation; however, such person is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:

(3) The person using such force reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony therein and that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
Absolutely. No questions asked.
 
#45 ·
Moe, the burglar committed one felony as soon as he crawled into the window (before you arrived home; before you saw him).

What about the language of subsection (3) above that says the person must be attempting to commit "a felony therein" meaning a felony that is committed inside the place?
Stealing a $75 valued item is misdemeanor theft by taking.

Ordinarily, citizens can PRESUME and make an INFERENCE that a burglar intends to steal multiple items well exceeding the felony theft threshold.

But, in this case, the burglar told you he's only stealing (hence the conversation through the window) that one item...
... and you can plainly see he's got nothing else on him (that skin-tight leotard, remember? You can tell whether he's circumcized or not.)

You know that the theft crime he's in the process of committing is a misdemeanor theft by taking, and his burglary offense (always a felony itself) is an already-completed crime that did not involve committing a further "felony" after he got into the home.
 
#52 ·
But, in this case, the burglar told you he's only stealing (hence the conversation through the window) that one item...
No, he didn't. Because I didn't ask him. I'm not obligated to carry on a tete-a-tete with the miscreant and give up whatever advantage I may have.

... and you can plainly see he's got nothing else on him (that skin-tight leotard, remember? You can tell whether he's circumcized or not.)
He may have nothing ON him but that doesn't mean he doesn't have something within reach that I can't see.

And my eyes won't be fixated on his dick! :mrgreen:
 
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