Carrying at executive airports ie PDK & picking up passe

Discussion in 'Places Off-Limits' started by Ned, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. Ned

    Ned New Member

    216
    0
    0
    I know it is a felony to carry into Hartsfield or its parking lots, but I am also a pilot and fly out of peachtree dekalb airport (PDK). Would this fall under 16-12-127 if i was piloting my own plane that I rented from an FBO (fixed base operator)? There is no secure terminal area like at Hartsfield so I was thinking that aiports like PDK were not included.

    Also is it illegal to carry with a permit while picking up a passenger at the Arrival and Drop off sections of Hartsfield. From what I understand it is illegal. Thanks
     
  2. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

    67,050
    1,428
    113
    Ned,

    O.C.G.A. 16-12-123 has an exception for planes that are private:

    The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to any privately owned aircraft, bus, or rail vehicle if the owner of such aircraft or vehicle has given his or her express permission to board the aircraft or vehicle with the item.

    I am unaware, however, of such an exception for "terminals" in O.C.G.A. 16-12-127. This is important because the maximum penalty for a violation of 127 is 20 years imprisonment (not to mention the hefty fine).

    I also noticed that you discussed the "secure terminal area" in your post. In states like Florida, this nice distinction of "secured" matters. In Georgia, you must look to the definition of "terminal" in O.C.G.A. 16-12-122(10) to find out what is covered. It is very disturbing to see what can get you twenty years.

    (10) 'Terminal' means an aircraft, bus, or rail vehicle station, depot, any such transportation facility, or infrastructure relating thereto operated by a transportation company or governmental entity or authority. This term includes a reasonable area immediately adjacent to any designated stop along the route traveled by any coach or rail vehicle operated by a transportation company or governmental entity operating aircraft, bus, or rail vehicle transportation facility and parking lots or parking areas adjacent to a terminal.


    My uneducated guess is that PDK is covered somewhere in that mess. I also think your last question is answered by the last line in the definition.
    :cry:
     

  3. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

    8,460
    5
    38
    Re: Carrying at executive airports ie PDK & picking up p

    The terminal does not have to be secure. Bus stops are considered terminals under this code.

    Basically it is any place that people or freight are kept before flight, transported to and from the plane, and boarding area.

    I would say that if you park in a seperate area from any of that above, and can directly transfer your belongings from your car to the plane you leased/rented/borrowed (or at least not go near any of the above activities while loading) then you would be ok.

    My local airport you could probably do this since there are many hangers away from the main terminal where flight plans are filed. Some airports closer to big cities may be more compact and it may not be possible to avoid the terminal.

    I would say yes, unless it is stored like the TSA allows for flights (even if you are not taking one).
     
  4. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

    67,050
    1,428
    113
    Even more than the stop!

    Actually, "a reasonable area immediately adjacent to" a bus stop is a terminal under the Georgia Code. So, when defending oneself against a felony charge like this in court, must one prove that he was three feet or four feet from the bus stop?

    Or farther?

    Closer?


    :roll:

    Is it sufficient to prove that you walked as far on the other side of the sidewalk from the bus stop as possible? Crossed the street?

    Asinine.
     
  5. Savvy Jack

    Savvy Jack Banned

    9,358
    1
    0
    Ned somehow I missed the link to your thread.

    More food for thought, thanks!
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Plenty of info on aopa.org - look in their forums. I also fly and the rule of thumb is - check the state's law's first. But most all airports fall under the juristiction of federal law. I have no issue with carring my firearm when I am piloting an aircraft. I have never traveled to a airport where one had to pass through a TSA check point or enter a secured area to enter or leave the ramp area. Even on the ramp area - private aircraft (including corporate) are isolated from commercial aircraft ramp area. I fly in/out of big & small airports. Carrying a firearm to baord a private aircraft on the grounds of an airport that serves commercial ops is a gray area. It would appear the federal regs are ok with it as it pertains to private aircraft only - but does not address the carrying say from your car to your plane. Also most states are not clear on this issue either - so I keep mine concealed and go about business as normal. I would say if you are discovered to be carrying on the grounds of an airport that has a TSA presence - you will be detained to sort things out - then maybe off to jail or court to sort them out.
     
  7. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

    27,544
    688
    113
    Private Pilots

    So should GCO enlist the support of private pilots to get the Second Amendment Protection Act passed? Private pilots tend to be well-respected and well-connected individuals, and their organizations are already familiar with lobbying for or against various legislative proposals.
    And pilots are, I think, a fairly conservative group, and generally gun-friendly.
     
  8. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

    27,544
    688
    113
    Flyboy

    Federal law does not automatically pre-empt state and local laws. If preemption is not explicitly stated in the federal law, and if it is not implied by the level of detail in the federal law and any evidence of legislative intent to replace state and local laws, then the rule is you have to obey both.

    Don't carry where the Feds say you can't carry, and also don't carry in any place where the State says you can't carry, even if the feds are silent about carrying in such a place or under such circumstances.

    Did the feds expressly approve of armed private / general aviation pilots? Did Congress pass a low, or stand by while the FAA made a rule, saying that private pilots can carry loaded guns, accessible to them, or authorize passengers to access such weapons, around private airstrips and un-secured terminals and other buildings?

    If not, then Georgia's laws are a danger to small plane pilots and passengers. The laws need to be changed before some innocent person gets his life ruined because somebody insists on vigorous prosecution under our existing hijacking and airport security laws.
     
  9. Savvy Jack

    Savvy Jack Banned

    9,358
    1
    0
    Re: Private Pilots

    Not just Private Pilots, get all pilots! BUt the again, there are alway Anti's out there!
    I am a Commercial pilot, however I do not fly for any airlines.

    Airplane Owners and Pilots Association as well as the Experimental Aircraft Association. Both are well respected aviation enthusiast groups.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Flyboy

    Under O.C.G.A. 16-12-123 (The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to any privately owned aircraft, bus, or rail vehicle if the owner of such aircraft or vehicle has given his or her express permission to board the aircraft or vehicle with the item) there has to be some implied law also. Meaning if you allow me to board with a loaded firearm, then you must allow me to get to that respective vehicle while carrying a loaded firearm. There are always going to be "gray" areas that the law does not spell out. That has to be sorted out under a court of law. Even if the law is presented in such a clearly defined way -there will always be LEOs that are uninformed or enforce their interpretation of the law. So if you are looking to be 100% safe from the law - you never will be. Law can and will be construed to fit whatever the respective party is for or against.

    As far as the airports go, FBOs can be privately ran or operate under a municipality. Gun toting pilots know to check their destination and any stops in between for the various changes in the law. You may be perfectly legal on the ramp - enter a posted fbo and be guilty of more than trespassing. Just know the laws of the state - you could take off legal and be illegal as soon as you land in another state & get out of your plane. Comparing Georgia to other states regarding carrying of firearms and general aviation – I see it is as good as most states. Again, I have never had an issue. I don’t advertise anything. I do know other gun carrying pilots and have yet to hear a horror story.
     
  11. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

    67,050
    1,428
    113
    Re: Flyboy

    So, if the government allows me to shoot at a WMA range with a loaded firearm, then they must allow me to get to the shooting range while carrying a loaded firearm?
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Private Pilots

    I am a member of GCO. As far as pilots being gun friendly and/or conservative - take a look on AOPA's web site forums - do a search for carrying a gun. You will get the same amount of anti's there also. But talk about imposing user fees or such for general aviation and they will be 100% against government control. But you are correct in the statement that we have had a voice in DC for many years through AOPA. I don't know how many pilots have ever spoken to their local congressman or state rep - but since my business is in TN & I live in GA - I have contacted both of my congressmen and state reps. I only get assurances that they take each matter seriously. And to be honest, on several occasions I have pressed for a stance on a particular issue from them - I hate to say it - but they are fence riders in most cases until it comes down to voting time for the issue. If you are lucky they will show up for the vote. But if it is a hot topic issue - they may not vote on it - just so they can claim "I didn't vote for that item".
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Flyboy

    Not exactly apples to apples - the range areas provides for an atmosphere for loading your firearms. An aircraft or ramp area does not. Nor would I really want anyone to be loading up out in the open and I don't think this was the intent of our law makers. Boarding my aircraft with a CC firearm - I would not expect to have an issue even if discovered. On WMA property heading to a range I would expect to have an issue if discovered.

    Unless it is explicitly prohibited - and in the case of carrying a loaded firearm on board a general aviation aircraft it is not - not in the FARS and in the GA code. If you came before a judge under such matters - hopefully his/her degree in jurisprudence would prevail along with a tad bit of common sense. Everyone is looking for a security blanket to fall on regarding the law. Even if it spelled out "Any GFL, CCW or Carry Permit holder may carry a loaded weapon on the premises of any airport, whether privately or publically owned, and for the sole purposes of boarding a privately owned aircraft of any type, and any functions that maybe imposed upon the GFL, CCW or Carry Permit Holder to carry out his or her duties as part of a Crew or as a Passenger. Such holder may carry in their automobile, in any building or on any ramp areas. GFL, CCW or Carry Permit holder may not enter any secured area or any areas governed or policed by TSA agents" there would still be areas that could be construed one way or the other. If not, then my lawyer buddy would be out of a job.

    In the case of WMA, it explicitly prohibits carrying a concealed firearm to the range area - in fairly clear language. In the case of a gun carrying pilot desiring to venture through TSA secured area the law is pretty clear here again.

    These topics have been debated among gun carrying pilots. We have pushed for clearer definitions in the wording of the law for carrying our guns inside of non posted buildings and parking lots. Is there some misleading wording/over lapping of the law? Absolutely. But that is the case in a lot of our laws.
     
  14. Bulldawg182

    Bulldawg182 Active Member

    6,126
    2
    38

    As stated elsewhere, I too am a private pilot and (might) carry concealed at PDK in my car, on the ramp, in the FBOs and in my airplane. I just today (might have) entered Signature to plan a flight, parked my car on the ramp and preflighted and landed at Winder to visit my avionics shop while CCing. That said, the clause stating you can, with the permission of the private plane owner, have a gun onboard does not in anyway specifically seem to speak to a concealed, openly carried or loaded firearm. It simply says it can be on board....I think.

    Not trying to parrot MP, but he's limited to what he can and can't say here since he is is an attorney. There are no hard and fast specifics which answer these questions for us in Georgia gun laws and the lack of same can result in major legal problems. Way too much "interpreting" going on and simply not enough clear, concise and unquestionable direction, IMHO. [/quote]
     
  15. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

    67,050
    1,428
    113
    Re: Flyboy

    When I flew into Eugene, Oregon, I loaded up and holstered my openly carried Hk right outside the airport doors. No issues. No license needed.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Flyboy

    I guess I still like keeping it on the down low (concealed). Everyone still seems to "freak" when they see a gun. Yes, even other pilots. I still rarely open carry - but would if I did not have to educate everyone that spotted it. I know - I should be educating - I just don't want to be like the guy in Knoxville a few weeks back coming out of WM with a LEO harassing, pinning him to the wall and taking his firearm. Yeah I know the LEO got a slap on the wrist for that one - but I just do not desire the hassle.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    As stated elsewhere, I too am a private pilot and (might) carry concealed at PDK in my car, on the ramp, in the FBOs and in my airplane. I just today (might have) entered Signature to plan a flight, parked my car on the ramp and preflighted and landed at Winder to visit my avionics shop while CCing. That said, the clause stating you can, with the permission of the private plane owner, have a gun onboard does not in anyway specifically seem to speak to a concealed, openly carried or loaded firearm. It simply says it can be on board....I think.

    Not trying to parrot MP, but he's limited to what he can and can't say here since he is is an attorney. There are no hard and fast specifics which answer these questions for us in Georgia gun laws and the lack of same can result in major legal problems. Way too much "interpreting" going on and simply not enough clear, concise and unquestionable direction, IMHO. [/quote:voblozc6]

    The GA code is specifically talking about carrying a firearm onto a private aircraft and other private vehicles. You are correct it does not state concealed. But it allows for concealed. As we all know the GFL is a carry permit. It was an exemption from other prohibited vehicles/tranportation.
     
  18. Savvy Jack

    Savvy Jack Banned

    9,358
    1
    0
    [/quote:eek:vzztuxo]

    Look at how the law is written. I agree it does not directly state you can carry concealed in the same sentence but look at the subsection as a whole. Remove the words that do not relate to your purpose and proceed with the subsection. Risky I know but it "could" be true.

    Any person who boards or attempts to board an aircraft with a firearm; concealed on or about his or her person or property which is or would be accessible to such person while on the aircraft shall be guilty of a felony. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to any privately owned aircraft if the owner of such aircraft has given his or her express permission to board the aircraft with the item.

    ALSO remember the title of this section.

    Why they omitted "Aircraft", I don't know but here is the title:

    O.C.G.A. § 16-12-123
    Bus or rail vehicle hijacking; boarding with concealed weapon;. This is all about passangers boarding with concealed weapons. Private and Commercial


    The purpose of this section must be to able to prosecute a hijacker. Which means you can not carry open or conceled or any way accessible to such person, EXCEPT on a private plane when permission is granted by the PIC Pilot In Comand.
     
  19. Bulldawg182

    Bulldawg182 Active Member

    6,126
    2
    38
    That is the ENTIRE answer to this thread. :lol: