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Man of Myth and Legend
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
From an email I get from VCDL.org . They will have no problem me sharing this here.

Nemo

19. [CA] A reason to carry with a round chambered [VIDEO]
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I always have a round chambered, as you may not have time to rack the slide on a semi-automatic pistol.

Thanks to member Walter Jackson for sharing this:

http://tinyurl.com/knmnrl7

or

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/04/12/dad-isnt-carrying-round-chambered-gets-self-son-killed-video/

Dad Isn't Carrying With a Round Chambered, Gets Self and Son Killed on Video
April 12, 2017

Yet another video has surfaced illustrating why it's critical that you learn to carry with a round chambered.

In it, a father and son are being held up by multiple robbers. The father is carrying, and when one of the robbers isn't looking he draws, points, then yanks the gun off center-line while trying to rack the slide to chamber a round. The robber shoots him first, and the guy dies on the floor still trying to get a round chambered. Apparently his son was shot, too.

It's impossible to know which way things could have or should have gone, but it's a pretty safe bet in this case that the fact that this guy was carrying without a round chambered got him killed. I'm not just talking about the shot he was never able to get off, or the fact that racking the slide had the effect of pulling his gun off-target after it was already on-target.

No, what got the clerk killed was the fact that he thought he was armed, but he wasn't. If he didn't have a gun at all, he wouldn't have drawn on the robbers. He'd have continued to comply, and he and his son would probably still be breathing.

But carrying an unloaded gun gave him false confidence. He thought he could bring the gun into play effectively, but he just couldn't. He paid for that mistake with his own life and that of his child.

In spite of what I've said above, I actually think it's not only okay but advisable for beginners to carry without a round chambered until they get comfortable and figure out what type of carry rig is going to work for them. Even experienced carriers will often carry this way when they're trying something and unfamiliar. But the moment you can get enough confidence to carry the correct way with one in the chamber, then you should do it.

If you insist on carrying with an empty chamber, then you should treat your carry gun like a slightly closer "truck gun." In other words, you're not going to access this thing unless you've got cover and you're in a situation where seconds don't count.
 

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Freedom Loving Citizen
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Well said...That's why I carry in condition 0, always!
 

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Cross-drawer
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Yet another video has surfaced illustrating why it's critical that you learn to carry with a round chambered.
There should not be much of a learning curve with most handguns.
 

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Registered
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If he didn't have a gun at all, he wouldn't have drawn on the robbers. He'd have continued to comply, and he and his son would probably still be breathing.
Based on? That sounds slightly speculative to me...
 

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Proud GCO member.
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Member Georgia Carry
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I think condition zero is chambered, hammer back, and safety off. :shock:
 

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Freedom Loving Citizen
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Zero? Not one?
Correct...

No sense in fiddling with the safety when drawing, as long as it's in the holster, it's safe from discharging.

I carry a Tokarev, which is much like a 1911.

Heck, anyone carrying a Glock with one in the chamber is condition 0 as well.
 

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Super Moderator
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Correct...
No sense in fiddling with the safety when drawing, as long as it's in the holster, it's safe from discharging.
I carry a Tokarev, which is much like a 1911.
Carry as you wish but in my opinion that is a dangerous was to carry a pistol.
While I wouldn't ever carry any handgun that way myself, the comparison with a 1911 is also not quite correct as the 1911 at least has a grip safety, the Tokarev does not... I still wouldn't carry a 1911 that way either and it's a much safer gun than the Tokarev.

Heck, anyone carrying a Glock with one in the chamber is condition 0 as well.
Incorrect. When a Glock has a bullet chambered, the firing pin is held in a semi-cocked position, when you pull the trigger you complete the cocking of the firing pin and then it releases when the trigger completes the stroke. It also has a safety in the trigger which helps prevent a negligent discharge which the Tokarev does not.

Just saying...

:soapbox:
 

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Lawyer and Gun Activist
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28,534 Posts
Yeah, I wouldn't carry a true single-action automatic without any passive safeties, and without engaging the manual safety.
I think that's negligent.
If you fumble with it or drop it and it goes off and shoots some innocent person, you'll probably be looking at criminal charges, not just a wrongful death lawsuit.

See O.C.G.A. 16-5-20 (reckless conduct, a misdemeanor if it just involves endangering people and exposing them to unjustified risks),

and see 16-5-3, involuntary manslaughter, when your unlawful and unsafe offense causes the death of somebody. 10-year felony.
 

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Man of Myth and Legend
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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
The only thing I go zero with a double action wheelie. With the long trigger pull I consider it safe. Try it in a single action and you will soon be known as hopalong.

Requiring just a trigger pull in an autoloader is (imho) unsafe and irresponsible. A thumb flip on the safety while doing the draw and aim is a much better way to go.

Nemo
 

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The only thing I go zero with a double action wheelie. With the long trigger pull I consider it safe. Try it in a single action and you will soon be known as hopalong.
Confused. Zero is hammer back, safety off. Exactly what you describe next.

Requiring just a trigger pull in an autoloader is (imho) unsafe and irresponsible. A thumb flip on the safety while doing the draw and aim is a much better way to go.
Glocks have no thumb safety.
 

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American
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And I thought Condition 1 was living on the edge........

The Russian TT-33 and its variants, Polish, Chinese, Romanian Yugo (zestava made) etc. Were imported en mass but they were designed with a half cock safety only. Import restrictions required that a thumb safety be added before they could be sold in the US. I think the consensus is that the thumb safeties are cheesy and the half cock safety is not safe if dropped with a round in the chamber (condition one).

The Yugo or Zestava model in the M57 is a little different. It has a longer handle and holds 9 rounds instead of 8. The confusion is that the M57 falls in the with the group above. However, Zestava still makes the M57A chambered in 7.62x25 and it has a real factory installed safety. I would say if you have this model then it should be as safe as any other to carry in condition 1, but without the safety engaged they are not viewed as "drop safe" at all.
 

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Man of Myth and Legend
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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
The only thing I go zero with a double action wheelie. With the long trigger pull I consider it safe. Try it in a single action and you will soon be known as hopalong.
On double action wheels. Hammer down, chamber live, squeeze (enough) it goes boom. That is zero.

Confused. Zero is hammer back, safety off. Exactly what you describe next.
Single action wheelies require cocking prior to discharge. That requires shooter thumb input. That is not condition zero.

Single action with hammer down is 1. Hammer cocked it zero.

Dealing with wheeiles Zero is pull trigger-- goes boom. Have to cock it the squeeze to get boom, condition 1.

Nemo
 

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I watch the watchers
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Quote:
On double action wheels. Hammer down, chamber live, squeeze (enough) it goes boom. That is zero.
What condition would it be if it were a DA revolver carried with the hammer back?
Less than zero?
 

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Quote:
On double action wheels. Hammer down, chamber live, squeeze (enough) it goes boom. That is zero.
Technically, yes. But there is a world of difference between a DA trigger stroke and a semi trigger stroke. I would argue that the action of releasing the safety is replaced by the 11# hammer draw stroke.

Single action wheelies require cocking prior to discharge. That requires shooter thumb input. That is not condition zero.

Single action with hammer down is 1. Hammer cocked it zero.
On that we agree.

Dealing with wheeiles Zero is pull trigger-- goes boom. Have to cock it the squeeze to get boom, condition 1.
On this we do not agree for the reasons stated above. Furthermore, I have never heard of a Glock referred to as Condition 0, only condition one. I suspect that is because of the drawstroke, which is MUCH shorter than a DA revolver.

If you said a DA revolver, hammer down was C1 and a glock was C0 I would tend to agree.

For reference:
Condition 4: Chamber empty, empty magazine, hammer down.
Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition 2: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition 1: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition 0: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

Condition 1 is widely referred to as "cocked and locked" and Condition 3 is known as "Israeli carry", where the slide is racked to bring the firearm into condition 0 "Ready to fire".
 

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Man of Myth and Legend
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
What condition would it be if it were a DA revolver carried with the hammer back?
Less than zero?
Its condition stupid unless its also condition sights on target.

Nemo
 

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Man of Myth and Legend
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
If you said a DA revolver, hammer down was C1 and a glock was C0 I would tend to agree.
Both take a long squeeze only to fire. Thats should make both same condition. But then again, a wheelie and semi?

HHMMMM, similar situation. Long stroke of trigger makes equal a plastic fantastic and a True gun of the wheel. On this thinking must be done to receive enlightenment.

Meditation I must do. Knowledge I must seek.

Nemo
 

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Both take a long squeeze only to fire. Thats should make both same condition.
A Glock does not take a long (or heavy) squeeze to fire. Stroke is 1/2in, pull is 5.5#. Compare that to 8.5# and 3/4" for an average revolver.
 

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Freedom Loving Citizen
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Yeah, I wouldn't carry a true single-action automatic without any passive safeties, and without engaging the manual safety.
I think that's negligent.
If you fumble with it or drop it and it goes off and shoots some innocent person, you'll probably be looking at criminal charges, not just a wrongful death lawsuit.

See O.C.G.A. 16-5-20 (reckless conduct, a misdemeanor if it just involves endangering people and exposing them to unjustified risks),

and see 16-5-3, involuntary manslaughter, when your unlawful and unsafe offense causes the death of somebody. 10-year felony.
The only time I'd ever pull it out of the holster with the safety off is if I were in a situation where I was actually going to shoot at an attacker.
If I fumbled with it or dropped it with the safety on, there would be a good chance that I wouldn't have the opportunity to recover it to defend myself anyway, so your FEAR of such a scenario is slim and simply a "what if" situation that isn't justifiable enough to change how I presently carry.

I've test dropped my handgun while it was seated in the holster from hip level with dummy rounds and it has never discharged.
 
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