Black Man protested against for carrying Confederate Battle Flag

Discussion in 'Off-topic Political' started by RebSoldier21, May 10, 2016.

  1. RebSoldier21

    RebSoldier21 Member

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  2. a_springfield

    a_springfield Well-Known Member

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  3. bdee

    bdee انا باتمان

    Did you read the story?

    Of course the KKK would protest a black man parading around with the confederate flag. It is their flag, and they certainly don't want some black man defiling what they believe the flag symbolizes. They have been quite successful in getting everyone to associate their group with this flag, and don't want any other narrative to cloud that association.

    You have clearly made my point for me, so thank you for that.
     
  4. zetor

    zetor Gaston beat up John

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    I thought Clayton Bigsby was back when I saw the title. So the KKK protested the presence of a black man?
     
  5. RebSoldier21

    RebSoldier21 Member

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    No, it is OUR flag. H K Edgerton is an great man carrying the flag of HIS ancestors. He is proud of that flag and will defend it to his last breath. You sir have problems. The flag does not belong to the Klan and it isn't their flag not will it ever be their flag. That is the flag of the southern soldier, 85% of who didn't own slaves. Many of those same soldiers were slaves or freed black men who proudly served. Try pulling your head out of your ass and maybe you will learn something.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  6. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Just to clarify, who is included in "our?" You are responding to bdee, but I do not think he agrees with you that the flag belongs to you and him.
     
  7. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    Of course he is protested. He is a racist. He is a black man that wants to be white.

    Nemo
     
  8. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I am sure you think this means something, but since we have previously posted the official statements of states (particularly Georgia) for going to war (and they read something like, slavery, slavery, slavery's effect on our economy, and slavery) I do not think that your 85% statistic is even relevant.

    Anyway, a southern soldier was more than twice as likely to own slaves as the southern population at large (which is shocking considering that young men would be too poor to own much of anything). They were 42% more likely than the southern population at large to be from a family that owned slaves.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/08/small-truth-papering-over-a-big-lie/61136/ NSFW due to some language



    Not cool. Cut it out. You can argue without stooping to personal insults, or you can take your presence elsewhere.
     
  9. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    "In the eleven states that formed the Confederacy, there were in aggregate just over 1 million free households, which between them represented 316,632 slaveholders—meaning that just under one-third of households in the Confederate States counted among its assets at least one human being."

    Same link.
     
  10. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    You don't have to talk to a Confederate apologist long before before you'll be told that only a tiny fraction of butternuts owned slaves. (This is usually followed immediately by an assertion that the speaker's own Confederate ancestors never owned slaves, either.) The number ascribed to Confederate soldiers as a whole varies—two percent, five percent—but the message is always the same, that those men 150 years had nothing to do with the peculiar institution, they has no stake in it, and that it certainly played no role whatever in their personal motivations or in the Confederacy's goals in the war. But it's simply not true in any meaningful way. Slave labor was as much a part of life in the antebellum South as heat in the summer and hog-killing time in the late fall. Southerners across the Confederacy, from Texas to Florida to Virginia, civilian and soldier alike, were awash in the institution of slavery. They were up to their necks in it. They swam in it, and no amount of willful denial can change that.

    Same link
     
  11. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    And of course, we can always believe The Atlantic. Articles there are never selective in their credits, quotation and interpretations of what they call authorities.

    Nemo
     
  12. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    They provide the source for you. Feel free to investigate and discredit the source.
     
  13. bdee

    bdee انا باتمان

    The book in question:
    http://www.amazon.com/General-Lees-...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276825358&sr=1-1

     
  14. RebSoldier21

    RebSoldier21 Member

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    My question is where did HE get his information. I need to do some research on that. People need to remember this, most of the soldiers that went to war were poor. They could not afford a slave. Most of those that could afford slaves were either officers or they paid someone else to fight in their place, which was very common. My ancestors, three of them, volunteered in 1861 to the Army of Tennessee and from my research they did not own slaves. Every census done in that time was a census of citizens then a second census of slaves, which would then show who owned them, their ages, etc..
     
  15. RebSoldier21

    RebSoldier21 Member

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    When I was saying "our", I was talking in respect to those of us who descended from soldiers who fought in the war and to the respect of Mr. Edgerton who constantly defends it. He has taken a lot of abuse from doing it from individuals spitting on him to one known account of a teenager knocking him out. So I apologize for the confusion.
     
  16. RebSoldier21

    RebSoldier21 Member

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    I will also publicly apologize to bdee for the "get your head out of your ass" comment. It was out of line and was made purely out of frustration. Please accept my apology. I have been arguing these points since Gov. Haley took it upon herself to bring it into the limelight with wanting to take down the flag from the monument, which bdee has said that he agrees where they should be. I have also pointed out that my organization, The Sons of Confederate Veterans, has put out through the media (which they chose to ignore it, how convenient) a public statement condemning the shooter and also condemning the Klan. As a directive from our National division, we are to kick out ANYBODY who claims to be in the Klan no matter who the hell their ancestor is. They are banned for life. We allow ANYBODY to join our organization not matter what your race is. So no, we are not a racist association.

    Also to clarify to Malum over my 85% remarks and the fact that Georgia did mention slavery in their declaration (along with South Carolina, Mississippi, and Texas) and that most of the slaves were in the deep south. That is correct. The thing is the Army of Northern Virginia had troops from all over the Confederacy, so no, you cannot say they were fighting to keep slaves. I will research the book mentioned and see where he got his information.
     
  17. bdee

    bdee انا باتمان

    The book itself gives an accounting in the methodology section of how exactly they derived their information. So before discrediting his work, you might want to read his work.

    Edit: Even in the article MP cited, he gives a brief synopsis of how he derived that number. As in they may not have owned slaves, but lived in households where the land owner did and another large chunk of the soldiery worked for, or provided supplies to plantations. Thus he is able to make the claim that that the vast majority of confederate soldiers had a direct connection to/ were dependent on the institution of slavery.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  18. bdee

    bdee انا باتمان

    Apology accepted. We all need to tone down the rhetoric on this site. There are far too many personal attacks, and too many instances of name calling. For me in particular I am not calling you or anyone else in this thread a racist. I can't peer into your heart through my computer screen.

    My only point is that the flag has been appropriated/misappropriated by groups like the one protesting in the OP. I am suggesting that that association between the flag and those groups taints everyone, which likely includes yourself, with that stink.

    I fully understand and respect the idea that you don't hold the same values as the groups protesting in your original articles. AND, I fully understand that the version of history you choose to believe is that those who fought for the confederacy rarely had any connection to slavery. This perspective is demonstrably false, and has been discredited many times over. However, I am not going to sit back and allow that version of history to go unchallenged.

    That being said, we can have a passionate discussion of history, symbolic representations, etc., without resorting to flame wars. It doesn't help the discussion, and I will endeavor as well to refrain from personal attacks.

    So apology accepted, and perhaps we can have a more productive conversation going forward.


    Edit: I do feel that war memorials should be allowed to fly the confederate flag. And I believe the flag at the rotunda should have been allowed to stay. However, the law required a two thirds vote in both houses and a governor's signature to remove it. The overwhelming majority of both parties felt it was the right time to remove that flag, so it was not just Gov. Haley that removed the flag.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  19. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    The link I provided gave median and average net worths for enlisted and officers right in the article. The median net worth figure given fails to support your claim that "most of the soldiers that went to war were poor," although I believed the same as you before reading that. I admit I had never studied the issue, however.

    The median net worth given was plenty to buy a slave, and in many cases it probably partially consisted of a human "asset."
     
  20. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for doing that. We do not all need to agree on everything to be friends and have a friendly forum.