Anti - LEO?

Discussion in 'Off-topic' started by Malum Prohibitum, May 15, 2007.

  1. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I am getting reports (more than one) that this site is perceived as having an anti-LEO bent. I find that strange because most of us, I believe, support pro-carry LEOs. I certainly do.

    But when they (Ga. Chiefs o' Po) come out against every piece of legislation that would decriminalize something that is now criminal for a peaceable citizen carrying a firearm - something that is already not criminal for them . . .

    When they harass peaceable citizens carrying firearms in a legal location . . .

    When they execute people under circumstances causing bystanders to believe the officer is committing armed robbery and murder, as in this video . . .

    I don't think it is anti-LEO to negatively criticize such actions.

    I also think we neglect our obligations as citizens of this republic if we fail to speak up.

    I would like to hear from those that disagree with me.
     
  2. mzmtg

    mzmtg Active Member

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    I agree with you.

    There is a difference between questioning questionable behavior on the part of some cops and being "anti-LEO."
     

  3. Sharky

    Sharky New Member

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    I know you want to hear from the opposition, however I dont believe you will hear from many that we are anit-LEO over here.

    I believe many of the views expressed are only when such actions deserve it as you mentioned. Its not our fault that the police departments are hiring incompitent officers. There are so many wonderful officers out there, however the actions of others hurt peoples perception. I too believe if LEO's in leadership postions try to take away rights already given, then they should be subject to question. There are always rotten apples in barrell. How they respond to that is the image we are given.

    LEO's are human however I believe them to be underpaid, underappreciated, and not trained well in the laws which leads to a host of other issues not to mention the recruitment pool in which to choose from. Heck I heard APD advertising on the radio yesterday! They are hurting....
     
  4. legacy38

    legacy38 Active Member

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    I don't want to get into a flame war with anyone as such would be completely counterproductive. There is an air of anti-police here to the point that it has/will turn off potential allies as well as breed opposition to the legislative efforts put forth by this organization and like minded people.

    Criticizing police action is a right and is not what I am referring to as anti-police. I understand the frustration that many here feel as I sympathize with those views. I see things from the inside that I don't like, but I have to work within the system to try to address them. When you treat someone like an enemy they will generally adopt that role initially as a defense mechanism.

    There are those here that think that intentional confrontations with officers will further the political ideals of this organization and like minded people. I promise you that such will have a negative result in the long run. You will win individual battles, but you will also be put through a lot of unnecessary risk while doing so and at the same time create active opposition to legislative efforts.

    I will be happy to expand on this and offer suggestions for actions that I believe would be more effective and at the same time build more a legal pillar for you should actually be forced into legal action. I'll also answer questions put forward to me based on my own experience and training.

    What I have no interest in is getting into anecdotal accusations, and I will not be put up against a wall for things that I can't control.
     
  5. Sharky

    Sharky New Member

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    Legacy38

    I agree with your opinion in ways as well. Kind of a little of both. Only way to get them to understand I guess is to show them and lead by example.
     
  6. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Does this include lawful open carry in a non-prohibited place? I am not arguing, I am just curious, since I regularly carry a pistol openly (and its a darn nice one that has solicited praise from LEOs).

    I would be interested in hearing further from you on this, although I do not want to turn this thread into the legacy38 fielding questions from 400 GPDO users thread . . . :lol:

    I will provide my own experience. Most of you know I am a former LEO and that I worked for a while in a wealthy, quiet suburb and also for a while in a rough, high crime, violent area. I was an overly aggressive young police officer way back when, but I never, ever, ever, not once, not ever, harassed a peaceable citizen openly carrying a pistol (although I did, at the request of property management, request people to either leave or lock up their firearms whenever they were unwelcome on private property more than once, which I do not consider harassing).

    I disarmed people all the time, but never just because of a firearm.

    I did not even take firearms from people at routine traffic stops (although I would never hesitate to seize a firearm if there was something in addition to the traffic stop). And yes, there are such things as routine traffic stops.

    Because of my experience, I find accusations of an anti-LEO perspective against me implausible, and I do not think it too much to ask for LEOs to simply leave me alone when I am carrying a firearm. Or nod and say "hi!." :D

    And, with the exception of one traffic stop years ago in Riverdale, which I will leave aside for the moment, I am pleased to report that has been my experience!

    But I always worry about running into people like the two Gwinnett officers with whom I had the conversation at the courthouse . . .
     
  7. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday New Member

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    I think that we have many "Rugged Individualist" types that view any arm of the Government, whether it is law enforcement, the IRS, or another agency with some suspicion.
     
  8. mzmtg

    mzmtg Active Member

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    That would be me. I don't ever give the government (whether that is the "system" or the people) the benefit of the doubt.
     
  9. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday New Member

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    Oh....please tell!
     
  10. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    It's on here somewhere. Suffice it to say for now that the officer was "legal" in seizing the firearm. That is, he did not violate any laws or even case law. I simply did not appreciate it one little bit, or his "professional" demeanor (you know, curtness is called professional these days :roll: - I would like for any other "professional" to use such a demeanor and see how many clients he has). With his hand on the pistol grip (still holstered), "Sir, take the weapon by the muzzle and slowly . . ." :roll:

    It was the last time I ever "volunteered" to an officer that I was carrying.

    He did, at the end of the stop, compliment my choice of firearm (Hk).
     
  11. pro2am

    pro2am New Member

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    I think the perception of anti-LEO comes from the frustration that there doesn't appear to be any consistency in how LEO's react to a GFL carrier, open carry or not. It's clear from various first hand experiences that there are a number of LEO's that simply don't know the law when it comes to citizens carrying a gun, which is not only dangerous to both parties, but can become costly in terms of jail time, lawyers fee's, work-time loss, etc. should a LEO arrest someone erroneously as in the Alabama Wal-Mart case (assuming his story was spot-on).

    If we are ensured that LEO's can be more tolerant and educated regarding Georgia's carry laws, we wouldn't have a reason to be suspect of every LEO that we see while carrying...wondering if we're going to jail or be harassed.

    I carry for personal protection. A police officer was shot only a few miles from my home, if the bad guy is willing to shoot a LEO, I don't stand much chance. But yet, I'm scared to open carry because of how a LEO might react. I don't need to be accidentally shot by anyone.

    Anyway, I think the (maybe) anti-LEO slant is based in frustration more than anything else.
     
  12. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't know what to do about this other than intensive education efforts (and, of course, legislative changes). I am open to suggestions.

    Ignorance is curable. It is not the officers who do not "know" so much as the ones who do not "care" that worry me.
     
  13. pyromaster

    pyromaster Member

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    I think it's more an issue of abuse of authority or reduction of civilians rights (having to surrender your gun or stay out of your vehicle for a traffic stop) that people mention here than an anti-LEO sentiment.

    I'm not even too worried about being temporarily detained and asked for my GFL as mentioned in the Gwinett officers thread. I am however quite worried about being arrested for no reason like the AL Walmart guy.

    Regardless, I would actually like more LEOs to join the site. Seeing their perspective etc will be beneficial to all.
     
  14. S&W 40

    S&W 40 Active Member

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    And they see our perspective, it is a two way street.

    My take on it is that most on this site vent what they hear, see or have been involved in.

    The majority of LEO are very good at what they do and I would not work for what they get paid and have to put up with. But at the same time it does make you say WTF when we get the stories of the small percent that FUBAR it for the others. It really can be looked at like us, it only takes one bad experience for an anti or indifferent of a man with a gun and a bad comment made to them that SNAFU's it for the rest of us.
     
  15. legacy38

    legacy38 Active Member

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    You hit one point squarely out of the park in your first paragraph: consistency. Did you know that there are over 17,000 police agencies in the US? That is a lot of different ways of doing things not to mention individual officers and supervisors within agencies. As to the number of agencies, I've personally experienced agencies that operate within overlapping jurisdictions and using the exact same radio codes have trouble with basic communication.
     
  16. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    If critisism of any LEO's action (no matter what they did) means this forum is anti-LEO, then I am afraid this is and always will be an anti-LEO forum.

    However from what I have read of the topics, we are only against those LEOs that do ignorant/stupid/illegal acts. If someone can stop LEOs from doing those kinds of things and teach them all what the carry laws of the state are and stop the liberals (like the police chiefs) from claiming that only police should be allowed to posses firearms, then those anti-LEO type of topics will stop.

    Though if I missed a topic that had unwarranted LEO bashing please post the link. I know there are plenty of topics where the LEOs involved in the story gets bashed, but LEOs like the ones that made up evidence against Kathryn Johnson or the Manassas Virginia LEO's and other similar topics deserved whatever comments that were made about them.

    In fact the forum posting guidlines against foul language have probably made some of these topics about LEOs not as harsh as would be found on other forums.
     
  17. GAGunOwner

    GAGunOwner Active Member

    Because of the carry laws in GA, for the most part, police are the GFL holder's ememy, probably more so than any criminal. The odds of being hasselled or arrested are a lot higher, I would think, than having to shoot someone.

    Why should a GFL holder have to fear the cops? That is the situation that we live in.

    I got a bad taste in my mouth after listening to those cops at that comittee meeting claim that they feared me. One police officer even said that non-cops should never be allowed to have a gun in their car at all, under any circumstance.

    I really do like cops, but as a GFL holder I feel like they are out to get me. I guess that is because the laws are so bad in GA. You'd think the cops would want to make it better but often times they oppose any poitive change just to have an excuse to arrest people.

    For example, the reason they opposed HB89 was because they want to be able to arrest you. The reason the Katrina bill was opposed was that they want to be able to seize your LEGAL gun in an emergency(when we need it most).

    Do these people sound like our friends?

    Usually, pro-freedom websites have an anti-LEO tinge because, after all, LEOs are the ones directly restricting freedom.

    I really could care less what LEOs think about gun control. They can have their opinion like everyone else but I don't think the gunlaws should be tailored to what they want (like HB89). Like I've said before, I'm sure it would make their job easier/safer to be able to search without a warrant, force confessions, hold people because they have long hair/tatoo, etc. but there is a thing called the Constitution out there.
     
  18. legacy38

    legacy38 Active Member

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    Far be it from me to tell you not to exercise the basic human right of self protection that even supersedes the 2nd Amendment, but I personally feel that by open carrying you are giving up a tactical advantage and asking for confrontations with officers. You should win on the gun issue, but you know as well as I do from your days on the job that such confrontations can turn into a myriad of other charges that you could very well lose even if winning on the gun issue.

    As I told you in an email, I would extremely shocked if one-half of one percent of the officers in GA were aware of this organization. I believe that a better approach would be for GCO to put together training brochures on the gun laws in GA from a positive point of view for the citizen and that inform agencies about the organization. These brochures should also point out the pitfalls of the laws as they are written as well as court decisions that favor citizens and articles in the chief's magazine that was posted here recently. These brochures could be expanded into in-service training and seminars.

    One of the biggest fears of any police organization is liability. Among liability issues that can get departments in trouble are failure to train and negligent retention. While the retention battle would be hard to approach, the failure to train issue is a very good avenue to address. First, by putting forth and documenting your efforts to provide training in this area, you add a strong plank to any civil and criminal civil rights claims you can make against an agency if you can show that efforts were made to train officers in the law but the agency either ignored the offer and disregarded the training. Second, most agencies easily get into training ruts simply due to budget, time demands, instructor availability, etc. Many would welcome an organization that would be willing to come into the agency and provide such training provided it met POST credit requirements and the instructors had good credentials, say a former officer turned lawyer. :wink:
     
  19. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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  20. CoolHand

    CoolHand Active Member

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    I think Legacy38 has some really good ideas. LEO education would help a lot. I had a deputy tell me once that a carry permit was only good in the county it was issued in. I've lost count of the number of times other LEOs have told me that a GA carry permit doesn't allow you to carry concealed.

    But what about all of us regular joes? What can we do? Cause even if Malum wanted to he couldn't go to every LE agency in Georgia to win hearts and minds for our community. I know from experience (2 LEOS in family) that they are very resistant to listening from anyone that ain't BTDT.

    How do we get through the "there's US and then there's Them" attitude that permeates each side of this situation?