[Nemo]

Been discussed a time or 2. Some outside commentary.

Nemo

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/law-shield-ammo-choice-matter-court

Law Shield: Does Your Ammo Choice Matter in Court?
By Woody, June 26, 2014

Shopping for ammunition can often seem like a daunting task. With consumer overload from the different brands and an abundance of uses, when you’re looking at shelves of ammunition it can be difficult to figure out which type of ammo works best for your firearm and what is legal for you to have.

Common slogans on ammunition advertisements include: “This ammunition is designed for military specifications, for consistent stopping power,†“Deep penetration and bullet expansion for the largest exit wound,†“This ammunition has been improved with engineering genius, ensuring the ability to stop any threat,†or “One of the few bullets to pass the FBI’s testing requirements,†followed quickly by, “Buy this ammunition!†These can make it difficult to figure out what will work best for you.

. . .

 

[Fallschirmjäger]

A good prosecutor will attempt to convince the jury that you used bullets designed to main and cause unnecessary suffering. He'll rely on getting their emotional response.

A competent defense attorney will demonstrate to a jury that you're using the same ammunition as used by X major law enforcement agency and that it is safer to use than lead or copper solid points. More than enough solid evidence to present to a logical jury.

 

[Rugerer]

For all the Googling I've done at various times, I've only ever found ammo to be a factor in a court case when it was hand loaded.

http://www.gunforums.net/forums/gen...andloads-caused-problems-court-mas-ayoob.html

In one case, the "shooter" was a cop where a DUI grabbed the cop's gun and got himself shot. They actually charged the cop because of carrying super-charged handloads to get the velocity advertised by Speer in his barrel.

In the case of NH v. James Kennedy, from the late 1970s.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, "Why wasn't regular ammunition deadly enough for you," used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

There are three other cases at the link. All three turned on confirming the distance of the shooter. Two cases used handloads and the powder residue of handloads being different from factory ammo cast doubt on the distance claims in the cases. The fourth case is an example of factory ammo being strong evidence of the distance and confirming the "good guy's" claim in the case.

This post quotes Massad Ayoobs book on the topic.

http://gundigest.com/concealed-carry/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry

While it's a slam-dunk to defend your use of hollow point ammo, the use of handloads in a shooting presents much more serious problems to your defense team. Defensive shootings are often very close-range affairs in which gunshot residue (GSR) from your muzzle is deposited on your attacker's body or clothing. This can become a critical evidentiary factor if the other side insists he was too far away from you to endanger you at the moment he was shot

 

[gunsmoker]

By itself, carrying extra-deadly ammo probably is a non -issue.

Combined with other evidence that you're obsessed with killing people and you can't wait to get a green light to blast somebody, it can be a negative against you.

As Doug King once said on his radio show, you never know what bit of evidence the jury will base its decision on.

 

[Phil1979]

If you could show that you reload to save money, and your ammo is within factory specs of other ammo, you should be good.

 

[Rugerer]

If you could show that you reload to save money, and your ammo is within factory specs of other ammo, you should be good.

Ayoob makes a point about that in one of the links.

YOU’D THINK THE COURT WOULD TAKE THE RELOADER’S RECORDS INTO ACCOUNT AND ALLOW TESTING BASED ON THAT. IT DOESN’T HAPPEN. NO ONE HAS YET BEEN ABLE TO OFFER A CASE WHERE THE COURT TOOK THE RELOADER’S DATA OR WORD FOR WHAT WAS IN THE LOAD. IT’S SEEN AS SELF-SERVING “EVIDENCE†THAT CAN’T BE INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED. SORT OF LIKE A RAPE SUSPECT SAYING, “I COULDN’T HAVE DONE IT, BECAUSE IT SAYS RIGHT HERE IN MY OWN DIARY THAT I WAS SOMEWHERE ELSE THAT DA.â€

 

[Phil1979]

I guess then if you reload, you had better be all over social media stating what a relaxing hobby it is allowing you to target shoot more, and how much money it saves you, and how careful you are to stay within specs of xyz factory ammo to be on the safe side.

 

[gunsmoker]

If you take the witness stand anything that you say is not hearsay because you are available to be cross examined about it.

And the "self-serving" objection wouldn't be valid IF the prosecutor challenged your memory or said you had recently made up that alibi. Then you are free to show your own notes made at or near the date in question to show your memory is accurate and your story isn't a recent fabrication.

 

[Scout706]

My carry load is Glaser Safety Slugs. You know, "Safety"! It's in the name!

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Ayoob makes a point about that in one of the links.

YOU’D THINK THE COURT WOULD TAKE THE RELOADER’S RECORDS INTO ACCOUNT AND ALLOW TESTING BASED ON THAT. IT DOESN’T HAPPEN. NO ONE HAS YET BEEN ABLE TO OFFER A CASE WHERE THE COURT TOOK THE RELOADER’S DATA OR WORD FOR WHAT WAS IN THE LOAD. IT’S SEEN AS SELF-SERVING “EVIDENCE†THAT CAN’T BE INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED. SORT OF LIKE A RAPE SUSPECT SAYING, “I COULDN’T HAVE DONE IT, BECAUSE IT SAYS RIGHT HERE IN MY OWN DIARY THAT I WAS SOMEWHERE ELSE THAT DAY.â€

Well, Ayoob is not an attorney. The court will certainly allow a defendant to testify that he was somewhere else that day. They would probably allow him to take the stand and identify his diary and read his diary entry.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

If you take the witness stand anything that you say is not hearsay because you are available to be cross examined about it.

And the "self-serving" objection wouldn't be valid IF the prosecutor challenged your memory or said you had recently made up that alibi. Then you are free to show your own notes made at or near the date in question to show your memory is accurate and your story isn't a recent fabrication.

Beat me to it.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I guess then if you reload, you had better be all over social media stating what a relaxing hobby it is allowing you to target shoot more, and how much money it saves you, and how careful you are to stay within specs of xyz factory ammo to be on the safe side.

Given what has been linked in the thread so far, I would say hand loading is a non-issue. I would not worry about it at all, especially in Georgia.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I am trying to think of any relevance at all in Georgia to a criminal proceeding. Lethal force is lethal force.

 

[gunsmoker]

Try this scenario :

You want to go for a walk in Piedmont Park for exercise.

Now you live an hour north of the city, but you choose to drive into Piedmont Park to do this . This park that is notorious for criminal activity in the heart of Atlanta .

You dress all in black. You wear concealed soft body armor you openly carry a full-size pistol with a suppressor and an infrared tactical light .
You carry a second a gun concealed on your waist a third got an ankle holster and a K bar fighting knife taped to your inner thigh .

You carry two sets of handcuffs and a book on George's weapons was with the pages about last full use of self-defense highlighted in yellow .

You also have laminated in your wallet a small card which reads " Dear officer. I understand I have just been involved in a shooting and you wish me to give a statement. Under prior consultation with attorneys, I decline to give any statement, other than to say that my use of force was entirely lawful under Georgia law and I request an attorney and I will make no statement until I've consulted with my attorney ."

The handguns you carry are loaded with special hand loaded ammunition with modified bullets.
You have drilled out the hollow cavities of these bullets with your own drill press, and inserted a pressure sensitive explosive in the tips . The explosive charges less than a quarter of an ounce, so it's not regulated under federal laws about the struct of devices, but they are exploding bullets of the style that used to be marketed under the name "devastator."

You shoot somebody. The circumstances are questionable, and the cops are trying to decide whether to charge you with murder or not . Or they refer the case to the DAs office, and now the DAs office gets to make that decision whether to indict you .

 

[Scout706]

Try this scenario :

You want to go for a walk in Piedmont Park for exercise.

Now you live an hour north of the city, but you choose to drive into Piedmont Park to do this . This park that is notorious for criminal activity in the heart of Atlanta .

You dress all in black. You wear concealed soft body armor you openly carry a full-size pistol with a suppressor and an infrared tactical light .
You carry a second a gun concealed on your waist a third got an ankle holster and a K bar fighting knife taped to your inner thigh .

You carry two sets of handcuffs and a book on George's weapons was with the pages about last full use of self-defense highlighted in yellow .

You also have laminated in your wallet a small card which reads " Dear officer. I understand I have just been involved in a shooting and you wish me to give a statement. Under prior consultation with attorneys, I decline to give any statement, other than to say that my use of force was entirely lawful under Georgia law and I request an attorney and I will make no statement until I've consulted with my attorney ."

The handguns you carry are loaded with special hand loaded ammunition with modified bullets.
You have drilled out the hollow cavities of these bullets with your own drill press, and inserted a pressure sensitive explosive in the tips . The explosive charges less than a quarter of an ounce, so it's not regulated under federal laws about the struct of devices, but they are exploding bullets of the style that used to be marketed under the name "devastator."

You shoot somebody. The circumstances are questionable, and the cops are trying to decide whether to charge you with murder or not . Or they refer the case to the DAs office, and now the DAs office gets to make that decision whether to indict you .

What type of socks?

 

[UtiPossidetis]

What type of socks?

Beat me to it!

 

[Phil1979]

I think gunsmoker is just trying to tell us he got a juicy contract on his latest movie script. ;-)

 

[a_springfield]

What type of socks?

With all that gear you would have to have Roman sandals or you would have a heat stroke.

 

[Phil1979]

No need to carry all that heavy gear. Just wear a nice gold chain while wearing a t-shirt that says, "Hunting Over Bait". :lol:

 

[Rugerer]

I am trying to think of any relevance at all in Georgia to a criminal proceeding. Lethal force is lethal force.

What is different about GA that prevents GSR from ever being evidence for or against someone in court?

His main point was to refute claims that no one ever got in trouble over hand loads.