Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'In the News' started by USMC - Retired, Aug 30, 2007.
We just need to add Bloomberg to that list...
That is some poor reporting.
They were conspiring to buy guns (the way it is written, they had not bought them yet), that were later used in violent crimes in other states ( how can they be used if they didn't have them)
I wonder where they got the original tip from?
No one, you are seeing exactly what trace data is designed to be used for (despite Bloombergs attempts at destroying this case and others).
Newark NJ police send a trace request for every gun they pick up where the person carrying it was involved in a crime. The ATF (whose job it is to enforce the law, not Bloomberg) keeps a record of trace data and sees that the same names keep popping up on guns traced from NJ.
The closest ATF field office then goes to work gathering evidense and figuring out if it is coincidence with no crime, the dealer illegally selling, or citizens illegally straw-buying.
In this case it appears to be citizens illegally buying since no dealer or gun store was mentioned.
How exactly does the trace data lead the law back to the purchaser? Are serial numbers and buyers names recorded at the time of the sale? I didn't think they were, so I'm wondering how the policy make that link. Maybe its just a case of the BG's giving up names.
While I don't know for sure, this is my guess.
ATF has a Glock 17 ser#12345, calls Glock finds out what dealer bought ser#12345. The ATF then contacts the dealer and asks for a copy of the form 4473 for Glock 17 ser#12345. The ATF then knows who bought it and when (unless it was resold in an FTF transaction).
That is exactly how it works only throw in the distributor between Glock and the dealer. I got a call earlier this year from ATF about a pistol I sold when I had my dealers license in the late 80's. Unfortunately, I was unable to help them since I had to turn my books into them when I closed the business.
Ok, gun is picked up from criminal robbing a store (say a colt 1911/.45 SN:1001) . The make, model/calibur and serial number are "ran" through the ATF. The ATF now have to contact Colt firearms and find out to what distributer they sold a 1911 SN:1001 and when. The ATF now contacts the distributer and finds out to what gun dealer the Colt 1911 SN:1001 was sold to and when. The ATF now calls the Dealer and asks to whom did you sell the Colt 1911 SN:1001 that you bought on such and such date.
The dealer looks at the various forms the ATF makes the Dealer keep and says it was Mr. John Smith of Atlanta.
If Mr. Smith keeps coming up in trace after trace, then the ATF knows something is going on that is probably illegal.
To your second question, yes they absolutely are.
You have to fill out a federal form when purchasing a gun from a dealer that has a place for your name, address..etc, and a series of questions of whether or not you can legally have a gun. At the same time the ledger book of the dealer's gun inventory has a place for what the gun is, it's serial number, when the dealer bought it, when it was sold, and a reference to the form you filled out.
If the ATF call like in the above situation, the dealer looks in the ledger and then goes and pulls that form you fill out with all your informaiton. Federal law gives the dealer 2 days max to return that info to the ATF.
Of course not every firearm ran through a trace was used in a crime. There are plenty of reasons , such as a gun found somewhere, Gun turn in programs, I've even heard of one being traced because of a divorce settlement.
Once again proving most criminals aren't all that intelligent.
Even without knowing all the steps involved or the amount of records kept, it simply makes sense that anytime you put your identifying personal information onto a federal mandated piece of paper, you should realize that information will be retained for a long, long time.
If you repeatedly do something illegal while fully aware a record is being made of your activities and you keep on doing it, you are some kind of an idiot!
Consequently, I just can't seem to work up any sympathy for these people...
Pardon me, for these stupid people....!
Absolutly, I was just trying to make it simple in that the claim was that all NJ crime guns are traced.
Like states that have restrictions on what firearms can be owned, you can wind up with some states tracing all "assault weapons" they come across legally owned or not.
It is also possible for the ATF during investigations to skew the data because they sometimes check large batches of guns at a time. Which is why gun trace data is not representative of real world illegal gun distributions. However those that want to sue the gun dealers out of business claim otherwise.