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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/az/201101240.asp

In March of 2005, two social workers and six deputy sheriffs descended on the home of John and Tiffany Loudermilk to “investigate†a two-month-old anonymous tip that their house was unsafe for children. After almost an hour of threats, the social workers finally threatened to take all of their children into custody if not allowed inside. The Loudermilks reluctantly agreed. The assembled officials took less than five minutes to determine that the allegations in the anonymous report were false.
They eventually agreed to let them in.

They are suing the social workers, their attorney, and four of the deputies for violating the Loudermilks’ Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches.

If after an hour of refusing a search of your car on the side of the road (under threat of arrest or impounding your car) you eventually agree to it, is it a violation of the 4th? I think not.
 

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AV8R said:
http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/az/201101240.asp

In March of 2005, two social workers and six deputy sheriffs descended on the home of John and Tiffany Loudermilk to “investigate†a two-month-old anonymous tip that their house was unsafe for children. After almost an hour of threats, the social workers finally threatened to take all of their children into custody if not allowed inside. The Loudermilks reluctantly agreed. The assembled officials took less than five minutes to determine that the allegations in the anonymous report were false.
They eventually agreed to let them in.

They are suing the social workers, their attorney, and four of the deputies for violating the Loudermilks’ Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches.

If after an hour of refusing a search of your car on the side of the road (under threat of arrest or impounding your car) you eventually agree to it, is it a violation of the 4th? I think not.
the HL'ed is the issue with the violation. The moment they gave permission was the moment that their 4th rights coudlnt be violated anymore. Either stick to your guns or not at all.
 

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Government intimidation at its best. Most normal people cannot hold out indefinitely. Eventually, if they threaten most people enough, they will give up. That's why its best to contact any attorney immediately after you refuse a search on 4th amendment grounds and the authorities do not give up and continue with the threats.

Also, a lot of people don't even know you can refuse a search on 4th amendment grounds if they do not have a search warrant, or RAS for the search.

I don't think a two month old anonymous tip is good enough RAS for a search, but these days, anything is RAS for a search, unfortunately. The 4th amendment is a dead amendment. I assume we have the War on Drugs to blame for that.

I've been threatened before, and I've been intimidated before. Unless you literally have balls of steel, know your rights, and have a iron firm resolve, you will give in. Its just a matter of time. Believe me, they will scare and intimidate most people so bad, they will all but be kissing butt by the end of it.

You know that whole, "Do Not Talk to The Police" video, well I guess that goes for Social Workers as well as Police.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I think people fail to realize that if they could arrest you, take your kids, or impound your car then they would just do it. They wouldn't be asking your permission to search if they had a warrant, RAS, or were rogue.

If they're asking, you can always say no.
 

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AV8R said:
I think people fail to realize that if they could arrest you, take your kids, or impound your car then they would just do it. They wouldn't be asking your permission to search if they had a warrant, RAS, or were rogue.

If they're asking, you can always say no.
Its those darn mind games bro. You know what the ones I'm talking about?

Me: Hello
Officer: Can we come in? We need to make sure everything is ok?
Me? No
Officer: Why not we will arrest you if you dont allow us in
Me: No
Officer: YES
Me NO!!
Officer: YES!
Me NO!
Officer : NO!!
Me YES!!

#@%[email protected]#%@#$% Gets me every time...
 

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Isn't it pretty well established that consent must be truly voluntary not merely acquiescent to the "authority" thrown around by the guy in front of you?

I'd say getting harassed for an hour is an "unreasonable" search, no matter what you said afterwards. Why draw the line there? What if he waved his night-stick in your face, or tapped you lightly with it? A yes is a yes, no matter how it's obtained? "I think not."

I think there was a case somewhere that ruled the search a violation after determining that a guy detained for too long (but not under "arrest") could reasonably believe he had no choice.

In this case, the consent was ruled involuntary because the officer lied about having a warrant.
When a prosecutor seeks to rely upon consent to justify the lawfulness of a search, he has the burden of proving that the consent was, in fact, freely and voluntarily given. This burden cannot be discharged by showing no more than acquiescence to a claim of lawful authority. A search conducted in reliance upon a warrant cannot later be justified on the basis of consent if it turns out that the warrant was invalid. The result can be no different when it turns out that the State does not even attempt to rely upon the validity of the warrant, or fails to show that there was, in fact, any warrant at all.

When a law enforcement officer claims authority to search a home under a warrant, he announces in effect that the occupant has no right to resist the search. The situation is instinct with coercion - albeit colorably lawful coercion. Where there is coercion there cannot be consent.
BUMPER v. NORTH CAROLINA, 391 U.S. 543 (1968)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... 1/543.html
 

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Fear and intimidation are very powerful tools. That's all I have to say about that.
 

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45_Fan said:
Needed this:
http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetail ... uctid=8220

Beyond that, does one call 911 to speak to a supervisor about trespassers and lack of a warrant?
Personally, I'd think closing the door at some point (within said hour) would by my tool of choice. From that point, I'd be consulting 911 about trespassers and my shotgun may have something to say about it too. :)
 

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martin_j001 said:
45_Fan":fmn0606w]Needed this: [URL="http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetails_c.asp?productid=8220 said:
http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetail ... uctid=8220[/URL]

Beyond that, does one call 911 to speak to a supervisor about trespassers and lack of a warrant?
Personally, I'd think closing the door at some point (within said hour) would by my tool of choice. From that point, I'd be consulting 911 about trespassers and my shotgun may have something to say about it too. :)[/quote:fmn0606w]
lol theres a party at Martins house and everyones invited:

 

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MesaCranker said:
45_Fan said:
Needed this:
http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetail ... uctid=8220

Beyond that, does one call 911 to speak to a supervisor about trespassers and lack of a warrant?
I wouldn't use the 911 line for that. Find the non-emergency number to the dispatch center and call that.
I'd think 911 was fitting....there are people on your property that have no right to be there and have been asked to leave. If it was someone without a badge, we'd all say calling 911 and have a weapon at the ready was the way to handle it, wouldn't we? :righton:
 

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Rugerer is right. Consent must be truly voluntary. A person who has said no, yet still endured an hour of harrassment, may not reasonably believe that they indeed have the right to say no. With threats added on top, the search may well be a 4A violation. Consent through coercion is not allowed. Generally you can't do things like, "just let me search your car and then you can be on your way." Then, you are tacitly beind detained, the implication being that if you do not allow the search, you may not be on your way. Every situation is, of course, very fact specific.
 

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martin_j001 said:
45_Fan":i3tnvrhw]Needed this: [URL="http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetails_c.asp?productid=8220 said:
http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetail ... uctid=8220[/URL]

Beyond that, does one call 911 to speak to a supervisor about trespassers and lack of a warrant?
Personally, I'd think closing the door at some point (within said hour) would by my tool of choice. From that point, I'd be consulting 911 about trespassers and my shotgun may have something to say about it too. :)[/quote:i3tnvrhw]

I would think that if an officer sees you with a gun in your hand while they are trying to come into your home, you could be shot and killed, and it would probably be justified by the courts later on, and nobody would get in any trouble at all for your death.
 

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EJR914 said:
martin_j001 said:
45_Fan":1pkj9re5]Needed this: [URL="http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetails_c.asp?productid=8220 said:
http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetail ... uctid=8220[/URL]

Beyond that, does one call 911 to speak to a supervisor about trespassers and lack of a warrant?
Personally, I'd think closing the door at some point (within said hour) would by my tool of choice. From that point, I'd be consulting 911 about trespassers and my shotgun may have something to say about it too. :)
I would think that if an officer sees you with a gun in your hand while they are trying to come into your home, you could be shot and killed, and it would probably be justified by the courts later on, and nobody would get in any trouble at all for your death.[/quote:1pkj9re5]

I didn't say anything about a gun in ones hand while an officer is trying to come in. If they're trying to come in through a closed door without a warrant, there's a whole other set of issues at hand there. :righton:
 

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martin_j001 said:
EJR914 said:
martin_j001":1bimsocy][quote="45_Fan":1bimsocy]Needed this: [URL="http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetails_c.asp?productid=8220 said:
http://www.forcounsel.com/productDetail ... uctid=8220[/URL]

Beyond that, does one call 911 to speak to a supervisor about trespassers and lack of a warrant?
Personally, I'd think closing the door at some point (within said hour) would by my tool of choice. From that point, I'd be consulting 911 about trespassers and my shotgun may have something to say about it too. :)
I would think that if an officer sees you with a gun in your hand while they are trying to come into your home, you could be shot and killed, and it would probably be justified by the courts later on, and nobody would get in any trouble at all for your death.[/quote:1bimsocy]

I didn't say anything about a gun in ones hand while an officer is trying to come in. If they're trying to come in through a closed door without a warrant, there's a whole other set of issues at hand there. :righton:[/quote:1bimsocy]

That's my whole problem with no knock assaults.
 

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^^That we most definitely agree on. When I lived in Houston, the practice of dressing in police/FBI labelled clothing and robbing homes was quite rampant. I know I don't have any reason to ever have a warrant served on me or anyone in my home, therefore ANYTHING coming through the door is for target practice--regardless of what the clothing might say and what they might be saying.

But back to the specific scenario. I would literally close the door after telling whoever was there that they could not search my home without a warrant and asking them to leave the property. I would indeed contact the authorities as well, especially in the case that someone (cop or not) is banging on my door threatening me or something like that. I'd also be setting up a recording device immediately. Hopefully, there's no need to consider anything further than that....
 
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