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· Man of Myth and Legend
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I subscribe to these. Although not always with #6.

Give the author the credibility you think he deserves. I give him credibility.

Nemo

 

· Super Moderator
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As to # 6, the only reasons given are:

Tactically, you are giving up the element of surprise should you face a deadly force situation. Furthermore, you run the risk of being called in to 9-1-1 as a ‘man with a gun.’ I have been on police ride-alongs when this call comes over the radio. It creates a very dangerous situation for all concerned.
And these two seem to me not to have merit. Indeed, the second one is a reason to carry openly, as the police in Michigan perhaps need some education. The only way to provide that to the police and the public is to carry openly.

And for whatever it is worth, I have been carrying openly for decades and have never had the police respond to a "man with a gun" that I know of (except in Mississippi a few years ago, when police seemed to be watching from a distance until I was finished, packed up my family in the vehicle, and drove away, but they did not contact me, and I don't know if they received a call).
 

· Member Georgia Carry
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Post HB60 I was the subject once years ago of a MWAG call at a public park playground. The officer spoke briefly with me and never demanded my ID or license, and then he left, probably to the annoyance of the control freak who stayed to watch to see if I'd get arrested or shot.
 

· Registered
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I've been OC since '06 (pre-HB60), and never had a MWAG call on me; matter of fact, other than the "whatcha carrying?" questions, the only other encounter I've had was with some virtue-signalling woman in Wal-Mart:

"You should surrender your gun to the police to honor Travon's memory"

I almost peed myself laughing. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 

· Lawyer and Gun Activist
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As Malum said, Ayoob's commandment #4
is out of date thanks to a plethora of states adopting what we call constitutional carry. And court decisions finding that the government must allow (license) citizens to carry handguns out in public for their personal protection.

Ayoob: "Like it or not, the laws of the land require, in 46 of the 50 states, a license to carry concealed. In two states, there is no legal provision for the ordinary citizen to carry at all."

I'll bet Ayoob wrote this article several years ago and either he or some assistant working for him just submitted it to Tactical Life for publication in November of this year without updating it.
 

· Member Georgia Carry
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I generally like Ayoob's articles, but can't agree on every point he makes. He is not a fan of open carry at all. I say everyone should carry as they wish. I like to see folks carrying openly in public and have thanked them for it.
 

· Lawyer and Gun Activist
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I also think Ayoob is too timid when it comes to gun lovers wanting to modify their guns to make them deadlier (more effective fir defensive use)
or choose the deadliest ammunition available, or make extra powerful handloads.

Although I suppose in theory this could backfire with the right combination of
an anti-gun prosecutor
anti-gun judge and some
anti-gun leaning weak minded people on the jury.
 

· Super Moderator
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How many real examples are there of this sort of evidence and argument being presented over the objection or motion in limine of the defense?

Is there a good answer for that out there, anywhere?
 

· Lawyer and Gun Activist
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I think we would not have any evidence on this point except odd antidotes from practitioners who personally witnessed such court cases unfold in front of them.

Reported case opinions that we can research online would only involve cases that went up on appeal with one of the issues being testimony about, or evidence in support of, somebody's choice of gun or ammo being extraordinarily deadly ALLEGEDLY showing bent of mind or malice of forethought, with the prosecutor making that argument explicitly.

And I don't know of any such case where the defendant was convicted, and appealed his conviction by alleging that particular type of mistake (bad ruling by trial court) at his trial.
 

· Man of Myth and Legend
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
How many real examples are there of this sort of evidence and argument being presented over the objection or motion in limine of the defense?

Is there a good answer for that out there, anywhere?
I doubt it. But I do not want to be the defendant hearing the arguments in the a case like that.

Nemo
 

· Super Moderator
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A kinda maybe example?


The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.​
When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.​
Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?Lessler: Yes.​
 

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I say kinda sorta because I do not know how much that actually occurred in the trial, as opposed to in the media and on the internet. It seems to me that such evidence would be excluded. Such evidence is not relevant. Is it self defense if using a .32 ACP, but not if using .45 Super? Both are deadly force if you shoot at a person.
 

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Old thread on the Harold Fish case.
 

· Super Moderator
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A kinda maybe example?


The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.​
When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.​
I just figured out that "Larson" is the reporter, so this is a media interview, not a transcript from the trial!
 

· Deplorable bitter clinger.
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Somewhat out of date, for sure. I do know that Ayoob and almost all high-level nationally known firearms instructors advocate against openly carried firearms, and some are quite openly disdainful of the practice. I don't really care either way, not wanting to get into the OC vs. CC debate. However, as an instructor who teaches basic pistol novices and concealed carry novices, my advice has always been to carry concealed, mainly as a key step in preventing the violent theft of an openly displayed, and valuable, firearm.
 

· Lawyer and Gun Activist
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QUOTE: "The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.
When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be."



I Don't think there's anything to object to about this. Yes the 10 mm is an unusually powerful handgun. Yes, if you shoot it at a human being you should expect that you might cause the death of that person. Death that cannot be avoided even with immediate first aid, CPR and calling an ambulance.

I'm Not seeing where the prosecutor argued that the arm citizen was a psycho who was looking for an excuse to shoot somebody and that his choice of gun, or his choice of hollowpoint ammunition, reflected malice in a way that contradicts legitimate self-defense.
 

· Lawyer and Gun Activist
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P.S. As a practical matter, a lot of dog owning men, and cat owning women, are borderline crazy and you can expect them to fly off the handle if you shoot their pets.

As to men who own dogs, an armed citizen who uses a gun against one of those dogs has have to be prepared for an owner's immediate attack with angry death threats. Trying to defuse the situation may not always work --as we see it did not work in this case.

Dog owners need to keep their animals under control and anytime you let your animal out in a public place without a leash --including a remote park along a hiking trail where you can expect other hikers to wander along --you are assuming the risk that your dog will attack somebody. Meaning either your dog could be killed in defence or you could be responsible for all the harm your dog cause if it bites a victim who cannot successfully fight back. I'd actually like to see strict liability imposed on all dog owners who dogs cause trouble while not actively wearing a leash. Also strict liability for the animal pulling out of its collar or escaping because otherwise all the dog owners will simply say "well I had the dog contained with a leash and collar but he slipped out of it" even when they are lying and never intended to use any collar or leash at that time.
 
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· Super Moderator
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He did not shoot the dogs. He just made a warning shot. Harold Fish said he tried to defuse it by telling the guy he did not shoot his dog, which did not work.
 

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I also think Ayoob is too timid when it comes to gun lovers wanting to modify their guns to make them deadlier (more effective fir defensive use)
or choose the deadliest ammunition available, or make extra powerful handloads.

Although I suppose in theory this could backfire with the right combination of
an anti-gun prosecutor
anti-gun judge and some
anti-gun leaning weak minded people on the jury.
Remember that Ayoob has done a LOT of expert witness work for defendants.

I'm betting that if he's seen an issue come up a single time, he'll mention it.

He's opposed to handloading altogether, not just overpowered handloads. It makes it harder to do forensics work that might exonerate a defendant.

He's not right all the time, but I think he's generally helpful to the community.
 
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