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Old 01-21-2014, 10:55 PM   #31
keepitreal
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That one "may" in 16-11-129 seems misplaced and has bothered me for a long time. It should be "shall" in my opinion.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:58 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugerer View Post
The new probate judge in Gwinnett, Chris Ballar, changed that. Two locations on the website and the PDF application form agree on the requirements for a US Citizen, which do not include a passport nor proof of citizenship. Just a DL is required.

There was a thread where someone reported not needing the passport in Gwinnett, but I'm not finding it.
Thanks for the update!
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:39 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepitreal View Post
That one "may" in 16-11-129 seems misplaced and has bothered me for a long time. It should be "shall" in my opinion.
It says "may" there because at that point in the description, it's really only talking about the fact that it is the probate judge's responsibility to issue the license, as opposed to the sheriff or the secretary of state, etc. That is, it is the probate judge who has the capability of issuing. If it did say "shall" there, it would be saying that $30 and a form would get you a license, nothing else needed.

After you get through all the qualifications, exceptions, and procedures, you get down to O.C.G.A. 16-11-129 (d)(4) where it says

Quote:
Not later than ten days after the judge of the probate court receives the report from the law enforcement agency concerning the suitability of the applicant for a license, the judge of the probate court shall issue such applicant a license or renewal license to carry any weapon unless facts establishing ineligibility have been reported
As for the question of citizenship, it says "Forms shall be designed to elicit information from the applicant pertinent to his or her eligibility under this Code section, including citizenship." Does that require everyone to prove where they fall: citizen, immigrant, or non-immigrant? I don't know. But I do note that it provides for differences between the groups.

Group 1: Everyone must be domiciled or stationed in that county.

Group 2: A person who is not a citizen must supply everything the GBI wants, as prescribed by rule or regulation, i.e. "sufficient personal identifying data, including without limitation his or her place of birth and United States issued alien or admission number"

Group 3: A person who is a non-immigrant must supply additional information because of his additional requirements in the Federal code (e.g. a hunting license). " An applicant who is in nonimmigrant status shall provide proof of his or her qualifications for an exception to the federal firearm prohibition pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Section 922(y)."

By my, not-a-lawyer, reading, I'd say bringing a birth certificate or passport is not required by the law. It only says that certain people must supply additional data on a form designed for the purpose, not show the unforgeable proofs of it. The application is presented under oath. Gwinnett County has you raise your hand and swear to the truth of it at the counter.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:51 AM   #34
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Rugerer - thanks. That makes sense about the "may".
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:51 PM   #35
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Here's how the law "should" work.

The application should ask your citizenship.

If you are not a citizen, there should be additional questions for you to answer on the application form.

If you SAY that you are a citizen, you can skip those additional questions dealing with immigration status, length of residency in this state, or whether you have a hunting or fishing license.

AT THE END OF THE APPLICATION, you certify under penalty of law that the above answers are true. You sign it and date it. The Clerk who accepts it from you verifies that it's really you, and that you did sign it, and that you understand there would be serious legal consequences for submitting false information.

THAT'S IT, for now.

THEN when the government runs your background check, it SHOULD come back with the government's "answer" about what they think your citizenship / immigration status is.

(If that's not part of what comes back from a background check currently, it should be added, since by law it definitely matters. It's a relevant inquiry, just like an inquiry about pending charges, past convictions, or being a patient in a mental health facility).

IF it appears that YOU LIED on the gun permit application (meaning, the gov't has evidence you're not a citizen but you claimed to be one), they call you back for an optional interview and follow-up session to give you the chance to prove the gov't is wrong. Or, if you don't take them up on this offer, your application is DENIED and referred to a law enforcement agency for an investigation and possible prosecution.

That's how it SHOULD work.
(I'm not saying that's how it does work now under current laws and regulations)
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:05 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugerer View Post
As for the question of citizenship, it says "Forms shall be designed to elicit information from the applicant pertinent to his or her eligibility under this Code section, including citizenship."
This is talking about the application form, and it is designed to elicit that information by asking for it. The DPS makes the forms.

Quote:
Group 2: A person who is not a citizen must supply everything the GBI wants, as prescribed by rule or regulation, i.e. "sufficient personal identifying data, including without limitation his or her place of birth and United States issued alien or admission number"
Right. No birth certificate listed. Does anybody have the GBI regulation or rule? Also, not that this applies only to non-citizens. Our original poster is a US citizen, so this section categorically does not apply to her.

Quote:
Group 3: A person who is a non-immigrant must supply additional information because of his additional requirements in the Federal code (e.g. a hunting license). " An applicant who is in nonimmigrant status shall provide proof of his or her qualifications for an exception to the federal firearm prohibition pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Section 922(y)."
Again, this category is different from a US citizen.
Quote:
By my, not-a-lawyer, reading, I'd say bringing a birth certificate or passport is not required by the law.
I would go further and say it is not authorized.

Quote:
It only says that certain people must supply additional data on a form designed for the purpose
And she is not one of those certain people, because she is a citizen.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by gunsmoker View Post
Here's how the law "should" work.

The application should ask your citizenship.

If you are not a citizen, there should be additional questions for you to answer on the application form.

If you SAY that you are a citizen, you can skip those additional questions dealing with immigration status, length of residency in this state, or whether you have a hunting or fishing license.

AT THE END OF THE APPLICATION, you certify under penalty of law that the above answers are true. You sign it and date it. The Clerk who accepts it from you verifies that it's really you, and that you did sign it, and that you understand there would be serious legal consequences for submitting false information.

THAT'S IT, for now.

THEN when the government runs your background check, it SHOULD come back with the government's "answer" about what they think your citizenship / immigration status is.

(If that's not part of what comes back from a background check currently, it should be added, since by law it definitely matters. It's a relevant inquiry, just like an inquiry about pending charges, past convictions, or being a patient in a mental health facility).

IF it appears that YOU LIED on the gun permit application (meaning, the gov't has evidence you're not a citizen but you claimed to be one), they call you back for an optional interview and follow-up session to give you the chance to prove the gov't is wrong. Or, if you don't take them up on this offer, your application is DENIED and referred to a law enforcement agency for an investigation and possible prosecution.

That's how it SHOULD work.
(I'm not saying that's how it does work now under current laws and regulations)

Thanks. That is how I would think it works because it makes the most sense. The clerk can't determine by looking or just speaking to someone if they are or not legal. She however never gave me the form but told me to go back home to get something like a passport of citizenship papers to proof I am a citizen and then come back. Had I been given the form I would have filled it out truthfully I AM A US CITIZEN... skipped the additional immigration questions and signed it. Then as you say they will verify all that anyway. After all they have all the info they want, including my shoe size problay.

So she the clerk, discriminated against me on her personal bias that because of how I spoke she wanted to give me some extra grief. Plus she lied when she said she was required by Homeland Security Rules to ask me for proof. She should lose her job if she lies like that. But that's never going to happen.

I haven't gone back. I am mulling it over. I am very disillusioned with the system.

Last night I though maybe I just give up on this whole carry right because, do I really want to be singled out every time I have to go there,
just because of how I speak and not sounding "American".

Maybe I just get bear spray to carry and a mini stun baton or something to that effect.

My husband won't like if I don't renew, but he did not get the "treatment".
He doesn know how it feels. To be humiliated in front of all the other onlookers like that. I was such a fool to think when I get my citizensship I will be just like all Americans, same rights, same responsibilities. Gosh I even shed tears during the ceremony, I felt it was such a monumental event. What a fool I was, I seem to have the same responsibilities but not the same rights.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:12 PM   #38
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When I applied for my very first GWL in Gwinnett County, they refused to take my permit without proof of citizenship, because I was a U.S. citizen born in Taiwan. I brought my passport the next day and they took the application.

When I applied for second GWL in Fulton County (after they started issuing the new GWL's with a picture), I brought my passport just in case. The lady made a copy of it to attach with my application but did say, "I don't think it's necessary but it won't hurt. We can attach a copy to your application just to be safe."
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:16 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by FedUpWithCrime View Post
So she the clerk, discriminated against me on her personal bias that because of how I spoke she wanted to give me some extra grief. Plus she lied when she said she was required by Homeland Security Rules to ask me for proof. She should lose her job if she lies like that. But that's never going to happen.
We already know this. She did not know your husband and others already know the system and were not asked for any of this "Homeland Security"

I would at least contact jrm.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:22 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ookoshi View Post
When I applied for my very first GWL in Gwinnett County, they refused to take my permit without proof of citizenship, because I was a U.S. citizen born in Taiwan. I brought my passport the next day and they took the application.

When I applied for second GWL in Fulton County (after they started issuing the new GWL's with a picture), I brought my passport just in case. The lady made a copy of it to attach with my application but did say, "I don't think it's necessary but it won't hurt. We can attach a copy to your application just to be safe."

I don't have a passport and I don't need a passport I never travel outside the US. I have a social security number and the government knows what it is it's on my tax return every year.

Why should anyone bring anything they are not required and why should some Citizens be threaded differently and proof citizenship. When I became a citizen, I let go of my previous citizenship. I refer to myslef as an American. I am not European American or wanna be American. I should be treated exactly as if were born in small town or big town America.

Some immigrants may continue to think of myself as an outsiders, but I don't. That is where the problems start. It's not right. Go along to get along. I guess I am too much of an independent mind to bow to that.
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